President-elect Obama first ran straight into Senator Feinstein. Now it’s other Democrats regarding his stimulus package. Obama just might need his friend Spider-Man if he’s going to try to push his stimulus by Senate Democrats. Right now, they aren’t buying what he’s trying to sell.
Senator Kent Conrad: “We don’t have unlimited money,” he said. “We’ve got to target.”
Sen. Wyden, a member of the Senate Finance Committee, on the $3,000 tax cut incentive for jobs: “There’s just not a lot of history of that working very well.”
Senator John Kerry piled on: “I’m not that excited about that,” Sen. John Kerry told CNN. “Having a tax credit for hiring is not going to change that dynamic — creating a direct job will. So I’d rather spend the money on the infrastructure, on direct investment, on energy conversion and other kinds of things, much more directly and much more rapidly and much more certainly create a real job.”
Relying on tax cuts, as Obama is doing right now in order to entice Republicans on board, sounds familiar. It’s very George W. Bushian and part of how we got into this mess in the first place.
“There is only one thing we have got to do in the stimulus, and that is how can we create jobs,” said Senator Tom Harkin, Democrat of Iowa, as he left the meeting. “I am a little concerned by the way that Mr. Summers and others are going at this in that, to me, it still looks like a little more of this trickle-down, if we just put it in at the top, it’s going to trickle down. A number of people in there said, ‘Look, we have got to have programs that actually create jobs and put people to work.’ ”
Senator Kent Conrad, Democrat of North Dakota and chairman of the Budget Committee, said lawmakers and the incoming administration had differences over how to focus the huge federal spending in a recovery bill. “Investment, investment, investment has got to be the central focus: energy, roads, bridges, waterways, housing,” he said. “Job creation is Job One.”
[...] But Geoffrey Garin, a Democratic political strategist, said the Obama plan’s price tag is “an awfully big number that follows a financial bailout that’s strikingly unpopular with the public. Both of these things create a challenge to overcome, some nervousness on the Hill and among the public.”
Some Democrats said they were not sure that Congress and the Obama administration would ultimately see eye to eye. Mr. Harkin pointed to Mr. Obama’s speech earlier in the day to promote the economic recovery package and said the rhetoric did not match the dollars in the plan. …
Trickle-down economics harkens back to Obama waxing philosophical about Reagan during the primaries, which didn’t go over very well then either. It also won’t create the jobs necessary to begin getting us out of this mess. You don’t have to be an economist to get it. All you have to do is look at history.
That doesn’t mean Obama won’t have the votes. But Senate Democrats know that if Obama’s stimulus isn’t crafted correctly (Republican support for tax cuts or not), no matter who left the mess, the blame won’t land on Bush.
I think John Kerry is right on this one. I agree – trickle down won’t work, it never has. I think the country requires some bold thinking and measures at this time in order to be healthy in the long term. Halfway won’t work. I hope Obama puts what is needed for success in the long term over bipartisanship, if it comes to that.
I’m inclined to agree with John Kerry on this one. Where is all this money coming from? Who’s going to pay for this stimulus package? I think the answer is jobs, jobs and more jobs. Tax cuts might make people feel good in the short term but in the long term I think we will be up a creek without a paddle.
The tax rebates to individuals don’t do much except maybe placate or MAYBE bolster spending a bit. The tax breaks to business however, in this instance, have nothing to do with “trickle down economics” What they’ve realized is saving an existing job is less expensive than creating a new job. Tax breaks to small business are good for moderating unemployment, which is headed for 10%. Drastic times call for drastic measures. Even Krugman said this morning “we’re not going far enough” The blend between tax breaks and direct spending may have to be adjusted but the formula is the correct one. IMO.
I read yesterday that ND’s Kent Conrad also said he’s not in favor of the $3000 tax credit for businesses because he doesn’t think that a business would hire another employee to produce more products that are not selling (paraphrasing here – can’t find the website now). That makes sense to me.
Here in ND, our state legislature is dealing with how to spend a SURPLUS of over 1 billion!!
So, we in ND tend to be fiscally conservative.
GeoT | 01.09.2009 – 10:12 am | #
You’re right on the surface but what do you do about those who have already lost their jobs?
BTW – did you feel the earthquake? My daughter said her pictures were swinging on the wall.
GeoT -
The more I think about his proposals, which weren’t much, the more I think they would not be productive.
A rebate won’t do crap. It is less than the rebate everyone received last year and that one didn’t do a thing because it wasn’t, and Obama’s is not big enough.
A $3000.00 tax credit to companies who hire workers is ridiculous right now. I was laid off (was an Escrow Officer) last November. The company I worked for would NOT hire me back, or anyone else, for a credit of that size. It wouldn’t even cover my salary for one month let alone payroll tax, health insurance, etc. Certainly the auto industry wouldn’t respond.
And by the way – what happened to rolling back the Bush tax cuts?
I think the tax break for families is a good thing for them, might help them get in a little better financial situation,pay off debt etc. I don’t know how it will help spending.
I don’t really see how $3000 will save a job for vey long if spending is tanking.
Creating jobs seems to be the way to generate spending.
A tax cut does nothing for those who lost jobs and have no income. Clearly it’s an ideological sop by the “Post-Partisan” to the GOP. It would be much better to restore the safety net that the GOP has worked so feverishly to eliminate.
LakeLady -
I think tax breaks for families is a good thing also. I just think it needs to be more. It’s the people in this country who have taken, and will continue to take, a huge beating by all of this. No one to date has done crap for the workers and it needs to be much more.
doppich – what you said.
This goes to my original basic problem with Obama. Bipartisanship. We need BOLD progressive action.Why do we always have to defer to the Republicans!! Have not they and their economic ideology been discredited enough…already!
Kris…agreed!
You’re right on the surface but what do you do about those who have already lost their jobs?
BTW – did you feel the earthquake? My daughter said her pictures were swinging on the wall.
Jane Austen | 01.09.2009 – 10:20 am | #
I know a number of people that are out of work (including my youngest son) I think the opportunity is similar to when the Aerospace industry went bust in So Cal. They need to fund massive retraining into new technology so people get jobs and the country gets a leg up in new industries. Under Carter I got trained @ a TV station under CETA and it gave me a lifetime career, so I know it works.
The plan will have to be adjusted no doubt and now is the time for people to weigh in as to specifics…
I wish someone would do the math for me…what is the cost of all the bailouts plus the cost of the stimulus divided by the number of adults in the country?
A rebate won’t do crap. It is less than the rebate everyone received last year and that one
didn’t do a thing because it wasn’t, and Obama’s is not big enough.
A $3000.00 tax credit to companies who hire workers is ridiculous right now. I was laid off
(was an Escrow Officer) last November. The company I worked for would NOT hire me back, or
anyone else, for a credit of that size. It wouldn’t even cover my salary for one month let
alone payroll tax, health insurance, etc. Certainly the auto industry wouldn’t respond.
And by the way – what happened to rolling back the Bush tax cuts?
kris | 01.09.2009 – 10:21 am | #
BTW, morning everyone.
Found the Kent Conrad statement: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28561910/
It was also in Yahoo News.
I am so lucky (and tenacious) to have the job that I do. I’m hanging onto it. Kris, I’m sorry to hear of your circumstance. My son was laid off from March thru June last year and he doesn’t know from week to week if that will happen again.
A rebate won’t do crap. It is less than the rebate everyone received last year and that one
didn’t do a thing because it wasn’t, and Obama’s is not big enough.
A $3000.00 tax credit to companies who hire workers is ridiculous right now. I was laid off
(was an Escrow Officer) last November. The company I worked for would NOT hire me back, or
anyone else, for a credit of that size. It wouldn’t even cover my salary for one month let
alone payroll tax, health insurance, etc. Certainly the auto industry wouldn’t respond.
And by the way – what happened to rolling back the Bush tax cuts?
kris | 01.09.2009 – 10:21 am | #
sorry. :=)
I agree about the rebate Kris but the tax breaks for business allows for writing off losses back 5 years which will cover the roughest times for most business. I think what they’re really looking for is a fresh start by getting business’ out from under the heavy debt burden.
Thanks velvet. It was a shock. I have never been without a job and where I live employment has always been a problem. Thank goodness I have a cushion but I live in a state (CA) that is an absolute mess and that does not help either.
GeoT -
I understand about the tax breaks but I just don’t think it will do anything for job creation.
And by the way – what happened to rolling back the Bush tax cuts?
kris | 01.09.2009 – 10:21 am | #
that is a very good question. I’m hoping they are deferred to allow for current realities. It would be a major disappointment if Obama abandons that promise.
GeoT -
Amen. I am afraid that alot of campaign rhetoric will turn out to be just that.
Morning Velvet~
I worry so much about my daughter and her husbands jobs. She works for a small niche publishing company and is their highest seller, even in these times, but I worry about her company making it. My son-inlaw drafts for his Dad an architect who won’t lay him off but work is really at a trickle.
I want them both to go back to school and get degrees in education, at least their jobs couldn’t be outsourced.
kris | 01.09.2009 – 10:28 am | #
Kris:
I managed to buy a house this month but having been out there looking I know how tough the real estate market is across the board (except for re-fies) I think things are starting to turn around now that prices have returned to something resembling “normal” Hope you find a good job soon.
I understand about the tax breaks but I just don’t think it will do anything for job
creation.
kris | 01.09.2009 – 10:39 am | #
The seed money for job training and infrastructure is a separate part of the plan, at least as far as I can tell.
Jane Austin:
I’m up in our new place in Sana Cruz but the quake was only 4.5… that just a rollover and go back to sleep earthquake. :=)
We are doing an infrastructure project on the lake, replacing our waterpipe system. Our contractor who comes highly recommended,can’t get a surity bond. This is holding up the project, and keeping people from going to work. It is function of the screwed up financial system. Can’t Obama force them to lend? Or… are they in more trouble liquidy wise than we have been told?
Thanks GeoT – I look for work everyday. Although it is discouraging the one thing I have learned is that you can’t feel sorry for yourself and just keep going everyday. Unfortunately I have alot of company these days in the unemployed. I wish all of them well also. So every time I feel overwhelmed by all of this I know there are others in a much worse position than myself and how lucky I was to have a very good paying job for years that allowed me to be okay for now. I know alot of folks didn’t save, didn’t make good financial decisions and are now devastated without work.
And I count my blessings for the friends I have and my family.
The idea of bipartisianship is fine and dandy but why do I get the impression that it’s the Republicans who will benefit from this? I’m tired of kissing Repub a@@ all the time. Just once I wish the Democrats would be bold and say wait a minute folks, our country and our people are in big trouble. We need to think boldly and act from strength. I am seeing the Dems as a bunch of wimps or are they Repubs in Dem clothing? Sorry for the pessimism but I just don’t believe in all the change they’ve talked about. It’s gonna be business as usual.
Can’t Obama force them to lend? Or… are they in more trouble liquidy wise than we
have been told?
Lake Lady | 01.09.2009 – 10:49 am | #
He can’t do anything yet, but in a few short days there will be movement in the credit markets. As of now only $300B of the $700B of the original stimulus as been released so there is significant leverage left to grease the skids for banks and insurance companies etc.
GeoT | 01.09.2009 – 10:48 am | #
And I count my blessings for the friends I have and my family.
kris | 01.09.2009 – 10:50 am | #
You have a good attitude.
Somehow my brother-in-law who does home loans has survived through all of this, I guess because people have been refinancing to pull out equity to survive.
Obama and Panetta on live right now.
Podesta is being announced. (msnbc)
I mean Panetta :=)
Geo I hope you are right!
Jane…I’m afraid that you ARE right!The long time Dems have such cozy,tangled relationships with special interests they have been coopted. I am putting my hopes in some of the new guys like the farmer/teacher from Montanna Tester.He seems pretty outraged at the state of things.
I mean Panetta :=)
GeoT | 01.09.2009 – 10:57 am | #
You had me going there for a minute. I thought I had really lost it.
to wit:
Geithner Preparing Overhaul Of Bailout
Obama Team Broadens Scope to Secure Final $350 Billion for Rescue
http://tinyurl.com/9sj8b5
Lake Lady | 01.09.2009 – 10:58 am | #
LL – let’s hope he stays outraged because it seems that when anyone goes to Washington to represent the people they start representing everyone but the people. I’m in an awful mood today. Maybe I should stop commenting and go take a shower.
You had me going there for a minute. I thought I had really lost it.
Jane Austen | 01.09.2009 – 10:58 am | #
“you say Panetta…I say Podesta” :=)
to wit:
Geithner Preparing Overhaul Of Bailout
Obama Team Broadens Scope to Secure Final $350 Billion for Rescue
http://tinyurl.com/9sj8b5
Thanks Geo.
JA -
I think you are right. It is going to be the same old, same old. You can smell it coming.
“you say Panetta…I say Podesta” :=)
GeoT | 01.09.2009 – 11:01 am | #
You trying to “gaslight me,” GeoT?
Lake Lady | 01.09.2009 – 10:58 am | #
BTW the banks have been redirecting the $ to other purposes besides benefiting homeowners and business, they need to be audited on every dollar of taxpayer money.
Jane Ha!…I’m going to take down Christmas. I had company up until last Sunday…and Sammy duty until today. It is starting to get depressing.
Time to put up my Red Bird collection for January, they will perk me up.
kris | 01.09.2009 – 11:02 am | #
I remember the dreams and hopes of the people as they reached for middle class status and a better life. I’m suddenly seeing the same people reduced to “serfs” with the Lords of the Manor ruling them and controlling their lives.
You trying to “gaslight me,” GeoT?
Jane Austen | 01.09.2009 – 11:03 am | #
no way! just havin’ fun.
BTW the banks have been redirecting the $ to other purposes besides benefiting homeowners and
business, they need to be audited on every dollar of taxpayer money.
GeoT | 01.09.2009 – 11:03 am | #
I so agree with you Geo!
bark beach
bbl
Lake Lady | 01.09.2009 – 11:05 am | #
I took Christmas down New Years Day before the ice storm. I would never have gotten the lights outside down otherwise. And the tree would have just wilted away.
new thread…
Jane, I would have if I had not had a housefull,we are getting some snow later today so I better get cracking.
The unemployment is so heartbreaking. Rather than just a number being reported, this is about a person and/or a family. I’m afraid there will be more jobs lost, going by the news I’ve been reading.
A $3000.00 tax credit to companies who hire workers is ridiculous right now.
kris | 01.09.2009 – 10:21 am
In fact, it could be counterproductive. Someone who planned a hire for next week, for example, could well decide to wait until the bill passes. Why risk missing a tax cut by a few days?
Okay, I’m back for a minute. Geo T., I see what you are saying – there has to be a balance between the business tax breaks and the spending for new jobs, the business tax breaks being a way to slow the unemployment rate. I guess that’s assuming businesses will use the breaks to hang on to the jobs. I’m not an expert in this area so I don’t know the ins and outs of all the balancing.
Lake Lady,
I like Jon Tester, too. Even though I am from New York, I donated to his campaign two years ago. I think he is a real straight shooter and down to earth. I hope he stays that way.
I’m not an expert in this area so I don’t know the ins and outs of all the
balancing.
lynnette | 01.09.2009 – 12:09 pm | #
I’m far from an expert but my older brother is a VP at the San Francisco Federal Reserve so I ask him allot of questions.
I find I’m in the middle-of-the-pack on this one. His tax stuff left me scratching my head in the primaries, in the GE, was the main reason I didn’t vote for him, and I don’t like it now that it’s part of the stimulus bill.
First, I think that’s a fake definition. His tax stuff isn’t going to stimulate a darn thing. It should be separate from a stimulus package.
Second, it’s really outdated and the same type of tax bill we’ve tried to move away from. Only your CPA will figure it out. More loopholes for finance groups to noodle, which means less real productivity.
Third, there’s no direct and easy business tax reduction. I still say, McCain was right on the money with his comments on this issue. Now is NOT the time to play “find the tax break” with business. Besides, a direct tax reduction here would not really cost that much, since very few are actually profitable right now.
It’s a plan worthy to be criticized.