Comments on: Clarity from Oslo

By: Imhotep

Imhotep — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 16:17:35 +0000

Now to your point about Obama. Obama is not a stupid man. Every utterance that he makes is carefully calculated. He has two audiences to address when he speaks. One is international and one is domestic. His international audience is far more skilled at interpreting the nuisance of his words than is his domestic audience. There are lots of reasons for that, some educational and some historic. When one is able to hear his words from an international perspective than one can see Obama’s, P.T. Barnum-like domestic quality. What makes him immoral and evil (a very harsh word) is the fact that he is fully aware that he is fooling his countrymen, and women, into believing one thing when he knows that the opposite thing is actually true. Obama is a huckster. But, not a very good huckster because his patter is wearing thin and he has feet of clay. Peace

By: Imhotep

Imhotep — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:55:38 +0000

WWII was a just war if, and only if, “we the people” agreed that it was a just war. Hitler started WWII in September, 1939 when he invaded Poland. Until December, 1941, “we the people” of these United States had declared our neutrality concerning Hitler’s war in Europe. That is a fact. On December 7, 1941 the Japanese attacked our naval base at Pearl Harbor. Hawaii was a US territory and not a part of the USA. On December 8, 1941 the USA declared war on Japan. That is a fact. Three days later (December 11, 1941), while the country was in a war fever, the USA declared war on the axis powers. Had Pearl Harbor not been attacked, the United States would never have entered WWII. Why Japan attacked the USA is well documented. Why US intelligence failed so miserably in detecting that an attack was imminent is an open question. The United States seems to show a pattern of these intelligence breakdowns just before we go to war with people. Coincidence? If the reason for entering a war is illegitimate than that war is no longer a “just war.” That is a fact according to your source. Peace

By: djjl

djjl — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:39:13 +0000

It’s just that I don’t see every single comment uttered by Obma or every action taken as being evidence of evil and or immorality.

By: djjl

djjl — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:38:13 +0000

Imhotep
Just in case you haven’t been here long enough to know wome of our individual history about who we supported, support, etc; here’s my 2 cents:

I was a Hillary Clinton supporter.
I was very skeptical of Obama, his experience, his credentials, his political history, his cynicism, and his willingness to play REALLY dirty (see Donnie McClurkin as a little starter).
I NEVER thought he was who he portrayed himself to be and there was NO evidence to back up that portrayal.
I am terribly disappointed in his “leadership” at this point.
I want him to succeed on behalf opf the American people – not on behalf of Wall Street, Black Water, Big Pharma, the medical industrial complex or the military industrial complex.

I hope for a truly successful Presidency. I think he has the talent to do it – just not sure he wanted to be POTUS for the truly right reasons. He’s going to have to develop a spine, an unwavering commitment to the well being of the American Main Street, and a moral compass that he is committed to follow. I pray everyday that he will.

By: djjl

djjl — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:28:43 +0000

Imhotep
We’re in Afghanastan – we were BEFORE Obama was elected. It is immoral to walk out a leave it broken. Then we’ll be back to the 1990′s and discussing the coming bitter winter and the hundreds of thousands of Afghans facing starvation because the US walked out of a nation the US had further torn down. A police force is necessary to bring a civic credibility to the country. It just isn’t as easy as we’d like. Kind of like Colin Powell told Bush “you break it, you own it” and with that goes all the moral imperatives to fix what you broke. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1844476

I know what a just war is about – which is why WWII was a perfect example of a just war. Read your comments at Imhotep says:10 December 2009 at 7:27 pm which perfectly illustrate you didn’t know what a just war meant.

I agree about Cheney/Bush/Gonzalez, etc.

By: Imhotep

Imhotep — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:13:59 +0000

djjl, your “just war” ‘google’ is talking about self-defense and not, as you so wisely recognized, pre-emption. Which is why the Catholic Church would not support either bush’s illegal invasion of Afghanistan or of Iraq. Israel is a strong supporter of the “just pre-emptive war” doctrine which flies in the face of all ethics, morality and international law. It was Moshe Dayan who sold this illegitimate concept to Golda Meir which allowed her to start the Six Day War in 1967 and steal Jerusalem and the West Bank. Baby bush was sold this same illegal concept by Cheney (a devout Zionist) and the neo-cons (all devout Zionists) to justify invading Afghanistan and Iraq. For Obama to not only continue, but to expand, these illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan makes him no better, ethically, than bush or Cheney. They are all war criminals. Which is why Obama wants us to “look forward and not backwards.” Peace

By: djjl

djjl — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:54:19 +0000

One of many that all acknowledge military necessity.

By: djjl

djjl — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:53:10 +0000

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1753/

Nation building

By: djjl

djjl — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:51:30 +0000

Zaldonis
How does nation building occur? What is involved?

Try googling “just war” and considering any number of definitions/explanations.

Here, I’ll give you the google link for “just war”

http://www.google.com/search?q=just+war&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

By: Zaladonis

Zaladonis — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:44:16 +0000

Obama’s Afghanistan war is not a “just war.” What a sight to see any Democrats buying that line at all. It’s a Bush line and that’s why right wingers praised Obama’s speech, which was nothing but a prettied-up version of the same old fearmongering and warmongering that a couple of years ago Democrats condemned.

Afghanistan never attacked us, poses less threat to us than some other countries right now, and 9/11 was 8 years ago.

And sending 30,000 military troops into a nation is not nation building, it’s war.

30,000+ troops is guns and bombs and killing. Nation building is money and energy being spent in an entirely different way.

By: texan4hillary

texan4hillary — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 07:05:33 +0000

yep thats right! im a right wing govt hating nutjob who loooves me some war! oh please.

By: djjl

djjl — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:16:56 +0000

THINK

By: djjl

djjl — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 01:16:26 +0000

You’ve made the point, Imhotep. WWII is a perfect example of a “just war.” You really seem to be wanting to talk about the pre-emptive war as initiated by Bush. Not at all the same thing.

By: Imhotep

Imhotep — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:31:11 +0000

texan4hillary, then you agree with Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich and Glenn Beck among other right wing warmongers. If those folks agreed with me I would hang my head in shame. But, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and the company you keep. Peace

By: Imhotep

Imhotep — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:27:56 +0000

djjl, an example of a “just war.” Just one example will do. Not an example of someone defending themselves after a war has been started by someone else. Rather a war that was begun by someone for a justifiable reason. Here’s a hint, World War II is not a legitimate example. That war was begun by Hitler. Peace

By: djjl

djjl — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:19:52 +0000

Yes, there is such a thing as a “just war.” All you need to do is think.

By: texan4hillary

texan4hillary — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:19:03 +0000

i found his speech to be his best yet rivaling jfk oratory. this one really resonated with me strongly. his theme on just war, reference to nazism and al queda was interesting. this is one that will be read and watched by historians in the yrs ahead.

By: Imhotep

Imhotep — Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:14:01 +0000

There is no such thing as a “just war.” No war is a “just war.” Unfortuantely, Obama, and everybody on the Right who just looovveedd his speech in Oslo today, just do not get that. Self-defense can be “just” but never war. Wars are fought to rearrange the deck chairs. To exert one’s will over another’s by force. The evil that Obama sees in the world is his own image in the mirror looking back at him. Peace

By: Taylor Marsh

Taylor Marsh — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:28:36 +0000

But take that a step further, djjl. What segment of the US electorate? The answer tells a tale.

By: djjl

djjl — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:42:38 +0000

Thank you Taylor. A lot of people seem to forget the world wide entreaties to help Afghanistan misery at the hands of the Taliban – pre-9/11 (1990′s). Remember the dread of coming winter, starvation, brutality and civic, religious and cultural destruction at the hands of the Taliban?

In my opinion, Obama’s speech in Oslo was for consumption by the US electorate – not Europeans or the Nobel audience. They didn’t seem to like it.

By: Taylor Marsh

Taylor Marsh — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:06:40 +0000

What everyone, including the people I’m hearing from via emails, are neglecting to mention is that we are primarily engaged in a nation building project in Afghanistan. No one wants to say it, but that’s a very big part of what we’re doing.

By: Zaladonis

Zaladonis — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:55:34 +0000

Present evidence that Afghanistan is a staging area for Islamic terrorists that are currently a direct threat to the US. If you cannot then you’re just going by what some people say. Some people said Iraq was a direct threat because Hussein had WMDs. I didn’t believe them either.

But at least Bush never was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize.

By: amabomon

amabomon — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 19:21:37 +0000

Only Obama can talk war, but then accept the Nobel Peace prize. With that said, I think that Afghanistan is a threat to peace, not just of the US, but of the world.

Afghanistan was a staging area for Islamic terrorists. It still is. Therefore, IT IS a direct threat to other countries.

By: Zaladonis

Zaladonis — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:15:26 +0000

9/11 was eight years ago. Afghanistan did not attack us and is not a direct threat to us today. Ordering 30,000+ more troops into Afghanistan is not morally justified. Obama’s acceptance speech coupled with his actions is a mockery of the principles behind the Nobel Peace Prize.

By: Lake Lady

Lake Lady — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:19:20 +0000

I don’t usually engage with Imhotep,though many times I have wanted to ask why he ends his flame throwing with the word peace.

The speech Obama gave this morning in Oslo was the one I wanted him to give last week on Afganistan.Was it just last week?

He gave us his world view with all of it’s nuances,he gave us the limitations of his moral views on war and what he believes the core message is of all the great faiths.He spoke of peaceful men who had come before him King,Mandela and Gandi but he explained the limitations of their beliefs when it came to defending a country and it’s people.

He told his audience of Europeans that he was not apologizing for the US being the indespensible country that also kept them safe while they carped at us.He revealed himself to be a pragmatist as Commander in Chief not an idealist. Now we know where he stands.He gave us insight into his deliberations leading up to his decisions on Afganistan.It was a really good speech.

My only question is why he trusted his European audience more than he trusts his US audiences to get the nuances. That might say more about us than it does about him.

By: djjl

djjl — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:14:08 +0000

Imhotep
I don’t think buffoons make sounds like sheep. They look to herd sheep; but buffoons don’t do it by making sheep noises. Think Glenn Beck, Limbaugh, etc.

That said I found a interesting site you might like to check in from time to time. It doesn’t seem very avtive – but I liked what I saw:

http://privatebuffoon.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-sounds-like-fun-story-that-i.html

Private Buffoon

Oh! a private buffoon is a light-hearted loon, If you listen to popular rumour; From the morn to the night he’s so joyous and bright, And he bubbles with wit and good humour! He’s so quaint and so terse, both in prose and in verse; Yet though people forgive his transgression, There are one or two rules that all family fools Must observe, if they love their profession. [Yeomen of the Guard, Gilbert & Sullivan]

By: djjl

djjl — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:03:02 +0000

Thank you Taylor. I didn’t want to listen to him this morning. I will after reading your piece.

“which I believe is at least five years down the road (and have said so on many occasions, regardless of the unpopularity of my position, which has never wavered).”

My guess is that you haven’t wavered on this is that you recognize reality. 2 plus 2 is always going to be 4. That is what was so cynical about Obama’s rhetoric during the campaign. He knew what was not going to be possible and he kept selling it anyway. Obama wasn’t going to be bringing the troops home as quickly as he led his gullible followers to believe. Not because he didn’t want to but because world circumstances that impact the United States directly and with immediacy wouldn’t allow it. He knew it then as he knows it now.

By: Imhotep

Imhotep — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:16:44 +0000

Baa, baaa. Obama is a buffoon. Peace