… Real health-care reform is supposed to eliminate discrimination based on preexisting conditions. But the legislation allows insurance companies to charge older Americans up to three times as much as younger Americans, pricing them out of coverage. The bill was supposed to give Americans choices about what kind of system they wanted to enroll in. Instead, it fines Americans if they do not sign up with an insurance company, which may take up to 30 percent of your premium dollars and spend it on CEO salaries — in the range of $20 million a year — and on return on equity for the company’s shareholders. Few Americans will see any benefit until 2014, by which time premiums are likely to have doubled. In short, the winners in this bill are insurance companies; the American taxpayer is about to be fleeced with a bailout in a situation that dwarfs even what happened at AIG. … – Howard Dean
Someone needs to save Pres. Obama from himself, because he’s headed to a political point of no return.
But I sure recognize the tactics. It’s as if the elves in Obamaland have revved up his primary machine all over again. No holds barred. Making deals with devils, as long as they’re your devils. Telling tall tales with no resemblance to truth, as long as it gets the job done.
Now it’s coming straight at you, Dr. Dean, and it’s not going to stop. You’ve been here before (via Glenn Greenwald) and I have too.
The only question is whether it was Rahm Emanuel or Pres. Obama who sent Mary Landrieu out to lie to Dean’s face (via satellite, that is) by making up out of whole cloth that Dr. Dean wants to “eliminate the insurance companies in America.” A talking point straight from wingnut land. Mind you, Chris Matthews helped Landrieu at every turn, protecting the establishment as he must.
However, Dean got in the last words: “You want to take away our choice.” Bingo, baby, there’s our ballgame.
Watching Democrats parade on cable, it’s like invasion of the Democratic principle snatchers. So, don’t trust a word coming out of their mouths right now. The Administration has scared good people into parroting talking points that you can see they don’t even believe. Except for Landrieu, who’s got to pay back boss Obama for all that cash she got for her vote.
Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy
Meanwhile, Pres. Obama was in rare form for ABC News, as he did a Bush impersonation I never thought I’d see from him, using every scare tactic he could think of to warn people of the dire, I say DIRE!, consequences if we don’t pass health care reform before Santa Claus comes to town. Honestly, where was Obama’s sense of urgency this summer when his mentor, Teddy Kennedy, was still alive; before Sarah Palin hijacked the entire debate that sent us all into the tailspin?
If the current health care bill isn’t passed “the federal government will go bankrupt,” warned Pres. Obama.
Bwah-ha-ha! …and also absolute rubbish.
“This will be the single most important piece of domestic legislation that’s passed since Social Security,” he continued.
Skipping over LBJ, going back to FDR. Obama floating his own press release in advance.
Single most important to the insurance companies that is, who stand to make buckets of cash on the backs of Americans forced to buy health insurance from private companies, without any competition that holds down costs.
“Potentially, they’re going to drop your coverage, because they just can’t afford an increase of 25 percent, 30 percent in terms of the costs of providing health care to employees each and every year,” Pres. Obama threatened.
Potentially drop your coverage. After sitting back all year long this is what we finally get from Barack Obama. Scare tactics that Dick Cheney would love.
So, instead of your employer having this cost, Americans will have it hoisted on them through government fiat, with the IRS instituting penalties if you don’t comply. But not to worry, it will not cost you quite as much as it would your employer, according to what’s leaking out so far. That is unless you are older or have a pre-existing condition. Oh sure, you’ll be covered; after all, what business could pass up such a bonanza? The sick are sitting ducks. It will simply cost you perhaps as much as 50% more. Until you reach your annual cap, which will then leave you on your own.
Hey, but that’s nothing compared to the Senate sell out on drug importation, as leading Democrats voted against Sen. Dorgan’s amendment, because if it had passed BigPharma would have taken the $18 billion dollar deal Obama gifted to them and gone home.
Who are these people running the Democratic party?
Like Sen. Feingold who sold women out not long ago, voting against preventative care for women in Sen. Stabenow’s amendment, like mammograms and pap smears.
With the Administration more intent on targeting DOCTOR Howard Dean over the conservative Dems who actually aren’t interested in any real reform, Joe Lieberman who is doing this for sport, as well as Republicans, with whom Obama still wants to make deals, even if they’re not bargaining honestly. …and we haven’t even covered Sen. Nelson on women’s civil rights and full reproductive health care.
But yet the likes of Robert Gibbs, who is clearly out of his league and field of expertise, is attacking Democratic Dr. Howard Dean.
It takes an independent socialist, Sen. Bernie Sanders, to stand to say he just can’t swallow the Senate swill as currently written.
Harry Truman would have dropped kicked the lot of them.
This isn’t FDR’s Democratic party anymore.
its war! and to think what could have been.
I’m with Howard Dean. He’s about the only one telling the truth out there. If the White House continues to go after him in this shameful way, Obama will not have my vote in 2012. Period. Dean irrational? What bull.
Well I guess progressives really don’t care much about children, huh? They don’t care about all the college kids who don’t have health care. They don’t care about all those people with pre-existing conditions. They don’t care about seniors. They don’t care about all the people who would benefit from the current bill. Scrap the whole thing and then what? Do you honestly, honestly now….no platitutes….believe that if they start over, it will pass next year? Do you think Joe Lieberman is going away, Ben Nelson, Olympia Snowe? Do you think the health care industry is going to lie down and let it get any better than it already is? I really don’t expect any of you to answer these questions, because then you’d have to come out of your rage and anger and think rationally, realistically. If you all succeed in killing this bill, health care is dead and so are a lot of Americans because of it. Think about the effect on ordinary people.
And if Howard Dean really thinks that reconciliation is the way to go…..ah, there goes preexisting conditions, there goes reform, there goes all the other provisions that reform the way the insurance industry works. You have to know the limits on reconciliation, right? Only budget issues, no reform, no regulation. Your cool with that?
I’m embarrassed to be a democrat, the republicans are laughing there asses off at you, Howard Dean, Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson, Keith Olbermann, Jane Hamsher, the whole bunch of you who are helping republicans win in the midterms. Republicans have won, not the insurance companies. They played you all like a cheap violin, you fell for it, your are playing right into there hands. Suckers!
Very interesting to watch the media in all this. Little Crista Freeland carried about all the water she could for the WH this morning on ‘Morning Joe’. From this point on I will know she speaks for the WH. But she wasn’t doing well enough so Axelrod had to first text Mica and then do a rushed call-in interview. Then all he could do was mumble.Mark Halprin represented the repub view as usual.Ed Scultz represented the people as painful as it is for him to have his Obama bubblr pop.
My rule of thumb is going to be ,those on the attack of Dr. Dean can not ever be trusted again. They are hacks,afraid to lose there access. Where did that get us with the last administration?
bubble…their…sorry it is early!
Jim you are directing yourself to the wrong audience. You should be direct your ire to your beloved President. He is the reason that things are in the state they are in by choosing not to lead.He is proving himself to be an incredible wimp and now he is trying to save his own bacon. Not yours, not children’s or old people’s or people with prexisting conditions. But you just keep on drinking the kool aide maybe it has healthful benefits.
Jim_in_Michigan says:
17 December 2009 at 9:31 am
Nahhhhh, naaahhhhh, nnnaaaahhhh
Right wingers are laughing their arses off, real Democrats, real liberals, and real progressives are crying their eyes out at what has been foisted on the American people by voters like you. Those who fell in love with the pretty look, pretty talk, and weren’t willing to do more intellectual heavy lifting to determine what would make Obama an adequate president much less a good one are the ones to be held accountable for this joke of a Democrat. I’ve said for over 2 years – follow the money. All the little people didn’t send Obama all the money. Bought and paid for – and the money ends up out of our pockets…..again.
Good one djjl!
When I think about people in the Senate who are in the process of selling us all out,who I believed to be true liberals, it makes me think of Warren Buffet’s comment about the financial meltdown. “When the tide goes out you see who has been swimming naked.” We are seeing alot of Sentors who we belived were swimming on our team who are so afraid for their own hides they are showing themselves to be naked of principle.
Lake Lady
His is the only bacon he’s been interested in.
Nice try djjl, Hillary lost. Deal with it. She was whooped by a one term senator. Like I said, none of you answered any of those questions. Snarkiness is your game, I get it. Oh, did I mention that Hillary lost, got her ass kicked around the country. Barack Obama is the president of the United States, he won! Hillary lost. Deal with it.
Here’s more than a 25% unemployment rate increase since November 2008 for the 15-24 age group (wonder how many of them voted for Obama):
http://www.hispanicmpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/hmpr_youth09.jpg
White 16.00
black 32.3
hispanic 21.6
women 16.3
men 21.8
Unemployment rate US (16 to 24) by gender and ethnicity
So Lake Lady, you really don’t care about all the things that are IN the current bill? Pre-existing conditions…let them die, is that how you feel. Are you a republican?
You guys are republicans, aren’t you? It all makes sense now, posing as progressives, working the inside, pretty crafty folks.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/17/seiu-urges-changes-in-sen_n_395411.html
snip
“And in a significant change of tone, Stern — who has visited the White House more than any other labor official — called out President Barack Obama for moving away from the promises of his campaign.
President Obama must remember his own words from the campaign. His call of “Yes We Can” was not just to us, not just to the millions of people who voted for him, but to himself. We all stood shoulder to shoulder with the President during his hard fought campaign. And, we will continue to stand with him but he must fight for the reform we all know is possible.
Our challenge to you, to the President, to the Senate and to the House of Representatives is to fight. Now, more than ever, all of us must stand up, remember what health insurance reform is all about, and fight like hell to deliver real and meaningful reform to the American people.
The letter is a reflection of some of the tensions in the union community. Union officials, while privately angry with the White House and Democrats in Congress, still need the support of these lawmakers on other legislative priorities. Meanwhile, having poured millions into advertisement and man-hours in order to get health care passed, they have watched in horror as the principles they worked for were abandoned in a matter of days.”
You are a joke Jim. Apparently what you really care about is Obama – the beginning and the end of what Democratic politics and principles apparently mean to you – OBAMA. And why is that? What is it Sooooooo special about Obama that it doesn’t concern you what a lousy leader he’s showing himself to be. The POTUS really does have to be able to accomplish more than a pretty talk.
Jim accuses djjl of being snarky, then launches into a fit of snark.
I can’t abide fools. They piss me off something terrible. I mean hey, what planet does this jackass Jim dwell on? Does he not understand what a gift this clusterfuck is to the insurance industry? Does he not understand how far removed this piece of shit bill is from what Obama said he would strive to do?
Unbelievable. Perhaps one of the reasons this country is getting so fucked up is there seems to be a lot of brain cell deprived people like Jim out there who are completely and utterly incapable of employing basic deductive reasoning.
Polls, the last refuge of the simple minded. I did my masters thesis on polls and people who live and die by them are wasting their time. They don’t predict a freakin thing until about 2 months out from an election, when people really start thinking about issues. Bush Sr. was 90% in the polls about 10 months before Clinton beat him. I hope you guys get what you deserve, Joe Scarborough and Sarah Palin as your president, then you’ll really have something to whine about. I am glad that President Obama is my president, he’s already done a lot to turn back the Bush years and I’m looking forward to more in the next 3 years, wooo hoooo. Oh, and Hillary lost, in case you forgot.
Jim
There aren’t any posters here, other than the cut and run type – you know who you are – that won’t just chuckle at your silly diatribes and taunting. You just aren’t too good at it. Maybe you’re the republican in Obama sheep skin.
Jim, jim, jim
It says it all when an Obamaphiliac has to drag in HRC to try to make a point – which always means the one suffering from Obamphilia doesn’t’ really have a point.
LOL, PissedOff…….Funny stuff. Name calling is great, I love it. Do you think that the insurance industry will be BETTER off if this bill passes or fails? Answer the freakin question this time. Do you think the insurance industry will be better off with this bill or without it?
djjl……republican
Jim
What “poll” are you referencing? Did you confuse “statistics” with “poll.” You might want to consider the difference between the two – one referes to a matter of opinion – the other refers to – you know – the reality.
I’m sure glad Hillary isn’t like you all, she fought a tough fight and conceded, joined the team and is working to try to clean up the mess that Bush created. I love her, she’s awesome. Very supportive of our president, very respectful….a great American. I love her.
Jim – get a grip – Yes the insurance industry will be FAR BETTER off with this bill than without it.
Everyone required to buy insurance while they have monopolies in each state –
No low cost alternative, No real “free market competition”.
Maybe you should read the article by DOCTOR Howard Dean that is mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Click on the words: Howard Dean at the end of the artice, or just go to the Washington Post website to read his entire op ed piece.
That will explain things to you and will explain how this has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HILLARY CLINTON.
wsj poll-45pct dems disapprove of obama. 41pct dems oppose hc . 55pct americans say nation wron g track. yikes.
Dean on On Point radio program right now — “I think this bill has become an insurance bill,” as in, they wrote it.
Curious, Jim, just what have I said that would cause one to think I was a Republican? Must be my tremendous disappointment in the POTUS. You sure haven’t been reading posts around here long enough to KNOW anyone if you call me a Republican. It seems your sole reason to pontificate is in fealty to Obama – not the Democratic Party and the principles for which it has long stood.
Try to do more when you post the nanny, nanny, boo, boo…..if you can. Most of us know how to lift the lists of “accomplishments” from the Obama site.
djjl, I wasn’t responding to the unemployment figures, I was ranting about polls, which your buddy Joe Scarborough and others seem to like to throw in our faces. You are a republican, aren’t you. You haven’t denied it yet…..or anwered any of the questions in my original comment. Typical…..
djjl….you ARE a republican, admit it. Answer one of the questions I asked in my original comment. I dare you!
Where have polls been mentioned here today? Yours was the first reference to polls on this thread.
So AliceP….you really believe that this bill is better for the insurance industry? Really? They want to cover people with pre-existing conditions? They want to extend health benefits to dependent children? They want to extend coverage for children? Really? Do you think that this bill is the end all, be all of health care? We can’t fix it in the next year, add a public option? It’s a base to build on. Apparently you folks are more concerned with blaming Obama than the lives of Americans who don’t have health insurance, piss on them, huh?
djji……I have the TV on and I went on a rant about polls. Answer one of the questions?
BTW, I don’t watch Joe, or anything on FOX.
Folks, go google Booman and Hillary or Clinton or just go to Booman’s site and you’ll be able to see how much respect he has for anyone named Clinton. If you were a Hillary supporter at any point you were “shilling” for her, where as people like Booman “supported” Obama.
One of the things you should learn, Jim, is you aren’t in charge here. And you really are out of your element at this site. Way over your head – point and all.
bbl – and if I could figure out what question Mikey wants answered I might do it.
Hey djjl…..I didn’t lift anything from the Obama website, they didn’t have anything there about his accomplishments that I noticed right off the bat, I lifted them from other websites. But here we are talking about the process……did you read any of his accomplishments? do you give him any credit for reversing some of Bush’s disasters? That’s the reason you appear to be a republican, you simply spew hatred towards a democratic president. You don’t acknowledge anything he’s done that is good. You don’t appear to really be concerned for people with pre-existing conditions. Do you know anyone without health insurance? Do you know anyone with cancer who can’t afford proper treatment? Do you know any college kids who don’t have health insurance and can’t afford to buy it? My compassion for people seems to piss you off, if it sounds like a republican, smells like a republican, looks like a republican….it must be a republican.
Go and watch Jay Rockefellar on Andrea Mitchell’s show from yesterday, I believe. That’s a man who cares about people and he was the original sponsor of the public option. I don’t expect any of you to do it, your going to spend all day on this blog bashing the president, helping them republicans win back the house and senate in 2010. Thanks you loyal democrats, you.
djjl……”One of the things you should learn, Jim, is you aren’t in charge here. And you really are out of your element at this site. Way over your head – point and all.”
Really, because I’m not part of your groupthink cult. Because I challenge you and your shortsightedness….your selfishness. You can’t intimidate me into leaving……well, I have a job I have to go to, so at some point I’ll have to leave and participate in society. I’m sure at some point I’ll get banned for not joining in the groupthink, but that is really your problem, not mine. If you can’t handle an opposing view, I feel really sorry for you.
cohn- andy stern should alarm wh more than dean. cohn says this is very big news.
http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-treatment/andy-stern-not-happy
lawrence odonnel on olberman- said the dems have made hillary’s mistake of 94. dems once again have a plan rooted in keeping alive private health ins industry. in the end u wind up defending that industry which most people hate. wsj poll-32 pct support hc bill now.
Here are two questions for you djjl, answer one honestly.
Do you think Joe Lieberman is going away, Ben Nelson, Olympia Snowe? Do you think the health care industry is going to lie down and let it get any better than it already is?
Well Jim I suppose that if extortion is the only way we get “reform” then I am against the bill
and it is extortion to mandate that people buy coverage from a private insurer just so insurance companies will cover pre-existing conditions. How many families of 4 making 54,000 dollars a year do you think can afford a crappy policy that costs them 500 bucks a month WITH SUBSIDIES? How much higher will that be by the time this is implemented in 2014? Some have estimated that by then the cost of insurance will be twice what it is now.
Republicans are gonna kill Democrats no matter what they pass, but once they get their teeth into the issue of mandates without any public policy in place, the Democrats are toast. And frankly if they force coverage on people without a non-profit Government run plan they should be. I don’t know if I’m a progressive or not, but I’m tired of having a bunch sell-outs chastise me because I can’t see the virtue of something that is less worse than worst
So Obama is lying about health care, but he’s telling you all the truth about Afghanistan???? That’s a laugh. Obama is lying about everything. You can tell that he’s lying by watching his lips move. He can save himself, but first he has to stop listening to the right wing Democratic stooge’s like Jim_in_Michigan. I’ll bet you support Obama’s expansion of the war in Afghanistan don’t you Jim_in_Michigan? Peace
Jim
You really are an idiot with you head securely up Obama’s rear. BEfore I leave for the day – I’ll answer some of these questions:
I read about the accomplishments Obama has made and if you read my posts you would know so. I give him credit where credit is due – not much has been due and he’s pissed away a lot of opportunity. I don’t spew hatred and don’t post anything that could be construed by a reasonable mind as being from a Republican perspective. You must be equating deeply felt criticisms of Obama’s policy with hatred. They aren’t equivalent. I’ve acknowledged and praised him on this site – but you are apparently a recent interloper and are unaware.
I know a lot of people without health insurance. I don’t know anyone now that has cancer that can’t afford proper treatment. But as a 4 time cancer survivor, I am quite aware of the issues involved and the extent to which the insurancy industry holds sway over care. I know a lot of college kids without health insurance and pretty much the only reason to be without it is because it is unaffordable. I have 2 young adult daughters with pre-existing conditions according to the insurance industry. Obama is far more likely to be identified as a Republican based on the principles he’s embraced and acted on as POTUS. If you want to be pissed off at one lacking compassion for people and the miserable state of health insurance, pull your head out of his back side and look Obama in the face.
I don’t recognize any passion from you for the people you’ve mentioned. What I recognize is fealty to Obama and all that may imply.
Well Imhotep, No, I don’t like any wars. I think he should bring the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan. I also realize that he was handed both those messes by Bush and their is no easy solution, but I prefer that the troops come home.
Jim_in_Michigan says:
17 December 2009 at 10:45 am
Here are two questions for you djjl, answer one honestly.
Do you think Joe Lieberman is going away, Ben Nelson, Olympia Snowe? Do you think the health care industry is going to lie down and let it get any better than it already is?
No, Lieberman, Nelson, Snowe – and I can name others – aren’t going way.
I’m making an assumption that your question is -Is the health care industry interested in health care or their bottom line? -They are interested in their bottom line and any concern about the quality and availability of care is only as it relates to a pipeline to their bottom line.
Thanks for sharing that link, t4h. Here’s the letter in full:
___________________
Letter from President Andy Stern to SEIU members: Where do we go from here?
By Andy Stern
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
A little over a year ago, you stood up and showed a nation that Yes, We Can. You knocked on doors, picked up phones, wrote your friends and family and neighbors and helped ring in a resounding victory. It was a win not just for a candidate, but for a people. For a country. For a promise of a better future for all of our kids and grandkids and generations to come.
And after that bright and shining day in November, you hung in there. At a time when people usually pack up, go home, and play the spectator sport of complaining about the system, you got up each and every day and did things both heroic and small to make sure that this time, we didn’t leave change to chance.
For nearly a century, Presidents and congressional leaders have debated how to fix our health insurance system. It has become a given that we can and must do better as a nation. But as surely as each generation has tried, each time, politics, special interests and scare tactics have blocked progress and made us come to believe we can’t: We can’t change, we can’t make our country better – plain and simple, we just can’t.
I am writing to you today because I believe this is the moment when we must stand as one and say enough.
We talked to more than 200,000 of our sisters and brothers all around the country as part of a Town Hall-style telephone call last week to talk about your questions, your concerns and your frustrations about what is happening in Washington with health insurance reform.
Cynthia from Maryland was worried about her health benefits being taxed.
Maria in California didn’t understand why the public option might be off the table.
Gerry from West Virginia wanted to know if he would be able to afford his health coverage.
One thing was clear: When SEIU stands up for affordable care every American can count on, we stand 2.2 million strong and ready to fight for the change our families, friends and neighbors; our patients and our nation need.
But at the very moment that we saw real and meaningful changes within our grasp, one Senator came forward to say “no we can’t.” He can’t let the Senate have an up-or-down vote on health insurance reform.
And the result of this Senator saying “we can’t?” The public option is declared impossible. Americans cannot purchase Medicare at an earlier age. The health insurance reform effort we have needed for a century is at risk.
SEIU does not accept that this monumental effort – that this reform that is so necessary to the health and wellbeing of our economy, our families and our future – can be over without a fight. A fight to make it work for you and your families.
Last night, we held a meeting with your International Executive Board–leaders from across the country. Leaders who know you, who understand what you are going through, and above all else, who believe that every one of you deserves a chance to weigh in on our next steps.
We talked about everything that makes this reform meaningful:
* The 30 million more people who will have healthcare they can count on;
* The people who will no longer lose their coverage if they get sick;
* All of us who no longer have to worry about being denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions;
* Women who will no longer be discriminated against just because of their gender.
* But we also recognized, that like you, we have concerns.
And while it is not entirely clear what the Senate bill will look like, it is becoming clearer that:
* For many people, care will still be too expensive to afford.
* Some of you would face an additional burden because your health insurance benefits would be taxed.
* And the best way we saw possible to hold insurance companies accountable was no longer an option.
So we asked ourselves – and we are asking you – the most critical question we have of this entire debate: where do we go from here?
We know we will fight. We will continue to fight for everything we know is important. We will fight to make care affordable. We will fight for real health insurance reforms. We will fight for employers to provide their employees with coverage. And, we will fight to pay for all of it responsibly without a tax on your benefits.
But we aren’t the only ones who must fight.
President Obama must remember his own words from the campaign. His call of “Yes We Can” was not just to us, not just to the millions of people who voted for him, but to himself. We all stood shoulder to shoulder with the President during his hard fought campaign. And, we will continue to stand with him but he must fight for the reform we all know is possible. He must fight for Cynthia, Maria, and Gerry – for every American.
Our challenge to you, to the President, to the Senate and to the House of Representatives is to fight. Now, more than ever, all of us must stand up, remember what health insurance reform is all about, and fight like hell to deliver real and meaningful reform to the American people.
In Solidarity,
Andy Stern
Now, I really have to go and make my visit to the health care industry and see what I can get in return for the thousands paid in premiums each year.
GaBuck says:
17 December 2009 at 10:46 am
Well Jim I suppose that if extortion is the only way we get “reform” then I am against the bill
Also remember, GABuck, that we’re talking about this particular bill as written. Everyone wants to continue fighting to get a better bill.
See ya, djjl, you’ve been on fire this morning. Well done, lady.
OH, I get it – Jim is another in the long line of Obama apologists who spring up like mushrooms everytime Obama is is trouble.
Anything to deflect the conversation from criticizing our fearless commander in chief.
yep, AliceP. The last refuge of the desperate: pull the Clinton card, then if that doesn’t get a rise, call everyone Republican. Have we not heard this before?
Some people just don’t know what to do when they meet a group of activists (yourselves not me, as I’m just a humble political analyst) and concerned voters who actually find ISSUES more important than propping up the latest politician. Because eventually they’ll be gone and we’ll be stuck with the damage done.
Wow, djjl, anyone who defends the president is “fealty to Obama”. I am not entitled to my opinion. “that won’t just chuckle at your silly diatribes and taunting”……that’s what you characterize my opinions as? Asking questions about people with pre-existing conditions? Wondering about how killing the bill will affect real people? Those are silly? And you wonder why I think you are a republican. You are way too blinded by your hatred for Obama, I’m sorry for pointing that out to you. When I voted for Obama, I knew he wasn’t going to represent everything I believe in, I saw it as way better than any of the other options. And like I posted last night, I’m a loyal democrat, maybe to a fault, but in a two party system that doesn’t appear to be changing, I’ve picked my horse and I want to get as much out of it as I can as a liberal. I’m sorry I support an imperfect president, but what are my options, stick my head in the sand and whine and cry for the next 3 years? I’m really sorry to have thrown a monkey wrench into your little groupthink world, I’ll go away now and stop challenging your hatred and shortsightedness. It’s been real, it’s been fun, but it hasn’t been real fun. I love and care about all of you and wish you all the best in the new year, peace, love and understanding. Signing off now, so no need to berate me because I won’t be back to read it. Go about your group hatred, it must be pretty fun for you all. God help us democrats, we need it.
And what kind of bill do you think we’re going to get Taylor? a better one? I don’t.
The fix was in once the the finance committee finalized this piece of crap. It’s what the President wants. And that was going to happen no matter what Sarah Palin had to say about “death panels”
And Jim, while there are a lot of Hillary supporters that post on this site regularly, I think most of us are justifiably cynical about using the private sector to achieve progressive goals, particularly when you’re talking about the Health Insurance industry. Methinks the public will feel that way too.
sirota on why dean scares the wh. they fear a cascading effect which is what is happpening see stern, olbermann. wait till trumka and members of congress weigh in soon.
http://www.openleft.com/diary/16531/howard-dean-is-a-genuine-hero
Hi, all, Noogan here, telling the truth as I see it,
I am surprised that people are so surprised about Obama. He had no experience, no credentials, no accomplishments and a history of lying about his positions on nearly everything, from Yucca Mountain to the Iraq War to Health Care Reform in Illinois. The one thing he always had–in abundance–was a talent for charming people. I figured him for a Narcissistic Personality Disorder prior to the election, and so far, I’ve seen nothing to dissuade me of that opinion. More and more people seem to be commenting on his ego these days. In point of fact, Obama made a dirty deal with Tony Rezko to get his house; he had a history of capitulating to lobbyists and insurance companies as an Illinois legislator, or voting “present” to avoid accountability, and there were articles pointing out how he avoided work, but was quick to claim the spotlight once the work was done, while he was in the Senate. Worse–far worse in my opinion than Obama himself–is what Howard Dean did to get Obama the White House. Dean is angry now; but he was part of the DNC leadership who helped give Obama 55 delegate votes in Michigan when Obama wasn’t even on the ballot. Those delegate votes gave Obama the nomination for the Democratic Party. Yes, he still had to win the election; but given the previous 8 years of Bush, the country was ready for a new face, and Obama had just the charm to win over voters. We might have at least had Hillary Clinton as our nominee, and if she had won the election–and I do think she could have done so–we wouldn’t be dealing now with a Democratic Party in destructive mode. I applaud Howard Dean for his 50-state-strategy. But, the truth is, we are paying now for Howard Dean’s nominating debacle. And, while I agree with him completely on this bill, I know Dean must be feeling pretty bitter these days about how things have turned out. They don’t look good for Democrats. Like Bush, Obama is hurting his own party.
I’m a loyal democrat, maybe to a fault
JimMichigan, That is indeed your disease.
When politicians know they’ve got blind loyalty they will more times than not take you straight into a wall. Obama is no exception.
GaBuck says:
17 December 2009 at 11:07 am
I am under no illusion about what bill we will get. It will be a crap sandwich. But raising the roof, for me, as a political analyst, is important, because I hope it gives you and other activists the courage to contact your representatives to also raise the roof. The noise COULD bolster progressives, though I’m under no illusion that Mr. Obama gives a damn what’s in the bill as long as he gets his “win.”
One last thing. Hillary Clinton is not the issue anymore. The readers and listeners around here LONG AGO let that one go. I was over her candidacy the day she endorsed Obama. I’m proud to have voted for him in the general. However, it’s quite clear he won’t be a good president unless he’s pushed very hard.
Hey Noogan, welcome. We don’t fight the primaries here anymore. That said, you do inadvertently bring up an important topic, though it’s way off the subject. Has Deans 50-state strategy broadened the tent so wide that we no longer have actual Democrats in Congress, but just Republicans with a “D” behind their names? A discussion for another time, perhaps. Maybe someone could put up a diary on that “In the News”?
http://www.taylormarsh.com/in-the-news/
All the more reason to kill it.
Exactly GaBuck.
I wish that was possible, GaBuck, but right now I just don’t get a sense that it is.
Dems don’t have a group of power bucking renegades who will stand on a line to threaten Pres. Obama with a defeat, something he wants to avert at all costs, understandably. But that’s what it would take to force a better bill.
Well I’d think self-preservation would would be motivation enough. I know it will be for the blue-dogs. How many of the fools will face the noose just to give the President a “win”
And at the end of the day, if something actually passes the Congress, the President, Pelosi and Reid will stand shoulder to shoulder blathering on and on about what a wonderful day it is for the country, what a historic moment, ad naseum. When in fact it provides a continuing revenue stream for the insurance companies because of the fact there is no po, not even trigger mechanisms, which would leverage the insurance industry.
Oh and the fact that very few in the country support this piece of shit anymore. Perhaps the American people are smarter than given credit for, for seeing through this charade.
Perhaps the Congress and President should govern in a way that is actually to the benefit of our country and is a reflection of what the people want as opposed to what THEY THINK WE SHOULD WANT.
Take a look at what the House passes last night by I believe 3 to 5 votes, in violation of House rules, with Ms. Pelosi in full campaign mode. Shameful.
He hasn’t called us racist yet,wonder how long that will take?
Remember when we used to wonder if some of these guys were actually paid by Obama’s campaign?
Another thing,strictly speaking in terms of winning and losing or I should say winners and losers I would have to say Hillary is the winner in all of this.
Demand congress fix the prescription drug benefit
go here http://bit.ly/drug_benefit
Send a message to traitor Joe Lieberman demanding he help enact a strong single payer public option into law.
http://bit.ly/traitorjoe
Send this message wide and far. Thank you.
See George Will if you don’t think the way Dems have handled health care hasn’t teed it up for the right:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/16/AR2009121602790.html
It’s a good column.
The Democratic Party of Harry S Truman has been a long time gone. It was a shell of itself since at least when Buba showed up and perhaps long before. Clever Elephants found out that they could get the Blue Collar workers to vote against their economic interests by a not so subtitle appeal to bigotry and the reptile brain. Thus was Nixxon’s wedge issue politics born. It was born of anger; it was born of crass racism; it was born of anti-intellectualism; it was born of fear.
BHO has stripped his tactics right out of Tricky Dick’s play book. He even found a useful idiot politician to play his attack-dog sock puppet. Mary Landrieu is channeling Spiro T. Agnew’s dark and evil soul. Seeing as she is from Louisiana it is no surprise that she is also channeling Agnew’s penchant for being bribed.
In an odd way it is a good thing that BHO decided to go full bore for Howard Dean. It is a good thing that he is acting like a photocopy of the shrub. Let him lie furiously, let him fear-monger and tell whoppers. Let him truly reveal his soulless technocrat personality. Let his epic hubris and cynicism be shown. Let the Progressive movement know exactly what they are dealing with. Let us finally get the memo of how naked this particular Chicago Political Operator and Emperor is.
By going after Dean, Obama finally proves how politically out of synch he is. Dean is no meek lamb to the slaughter. The man has some sharp elbows. Ask Hillary, she knows. Dean is the man that led an insurgency against official Washington before. He and his grass roots organizing acumen seized the DNC from the dead hand of the Beltway before. To borrow a phrase from Douglas Addams, this is a man you dare not cross without a team of Sherpas. Obama has misjudged Dean; he has let Rahm Emanuel deaden his political antennae. Dean has some real political chits he can call in. Remember his brother runs DFA. Remember Howard’s fifty state program laid the groundwork for many up and coming politicians. More importantly Howard Dean speaks to the Democratic Party’s soul. His message of rejection, his principled stand, is acid to the base metal of BHO’s shallow political gamesmanship.
Since the subject is political gamesmanship, let us dispose of one of the more absurd claims made about BHO by his partisans; that he is a fourth quarter player. If what we are witnessing now is meant by Barack’s last minute gamesmanship, then he is the most pathetic of sand lot players. The hapless Ryan Leaf of the epically awful year 2000 edition of the San Diego Chargers was a better field captain than Obama is proving to be. At least Leaf won his first two games.
The only good thing about Obama’s first year is that it now just about over. It is hard to remember a politician who so recklessly squandered the good will of the voters of the U.S. It is hard to recall a politician who was so unschooled in the realities of political Washington. It is hard to find a man or woman in the top tier of politics who so easily surrendered the field to his or her opponents. It is long past wake up and smell the coffee for Obama, someone in the White House needs to dump a 30 cup urn of hot Arabica on his thick head.
Health care reform is dead Obama’s disengaged leadership helped to kill it. He foolishly allowed the Senate its own way. Barack ignorantly telegraphed his position to hostile parties. The president early on surrendered the baby, the bathwater, the towel and the rubber duck by inviting the “principles” to participate in the process. He thought you were playing poker when what the opposition was playing was 51 card pick up. Instead of going to war against the real opponents he decided to attack one of his best ground commanders. What part of the Republican’s “we hope Obama fails” did he not understand?
One of the most dangerous things a politician can do is believe their own propaganda. Obama is acting like he really believes that he is a transformative politician. He acts like he thinks that he alone will be able to solve the partisan divide. He acts like he believes that he alone will, by the force of his wonderful personality, heal the nation by enlightened compromise. He acts like he still does not understand that the Republicans are acting in bad faith. He acts like he does not understand how degraded the opposition has become; that they have fallen into viciousness, ignorance and spite.
Not being a mind reader, one cannot really know what Barack Obama thinks or believes. One can only look at results. The results of the last year are of a politician far too full of himself for his own good. If the results are those of a self-absorbed, clueless politician with no moral center, then it high time to act as if that is Barack Obama’s default position.
aflcio to oppose bill if no po etc-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/17/seiu-urges-changes-in-sen_n_395411.html
I’m not so certain Obama didn’t intend REAL health care reform to fail. He thought he’d have the likes of Jim in Michigan to cover his sell out. Obama didn’t anticipate that their were REAL Democrats, progressives, and liberals who felt deeply that principle mattered. He’s likely quite surprised that we didn’t fold our tent at his first indicating that he didn’t have the stomach for meaningful health care reform.
“I’m a loyal democrat, maybe to a fault”
jim bo
You obviously don’t know the first thing about being a real Democrat. You also seem to have difficulty comprehending the written word.
Wow. Just before I left for Nigeria, people on this site were literally asking for more diverse opinions. Decided to check in on the way back to see how that went. Well, this Jim fellow shows up with a different opinion. And instead of responding to his comments and arguments, we’re back to the Obama lover/kool aide rhetoric. And comparing poll ratings for Obama and Clinton. But of course, we don’t fight the primaries here anymore, so these points must be entirely substantive and issues-based. Musn’t they?
Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. I’m off to sleep off the jet lag. Enjoy your scrum.
Ogenec
you need to go back and really read Jim Bo. There’s no problem with differing opinions – fella just couldn’t stand his up. He was inover his head – the fact that he goes back to carter just shows age does not equate any degree of intellectual maturity.
I did go back and read. I do not care one whit for the “my guy won, your girl lost, get over it” tone. It’s way past time people stopped thinking in those terms. That said, I don’t agree with the tone of other comments here, such as those that explicitly contend that Obama bought the presidency, and that he is deliberately weakening health care reform because he’s in thrall to his insurance company overlords.
These kinds of debates always get overheated, personal, and ugly. If that’s how you guys want to roll, good luck getting posters of a different stripe. If you are in fact serious about encouraging other voices, then Jim’s initial postings did not warrant the incoming he received. It was a classic ad hominem response: instead of taking on the arguments of the commentator Jim quoted, the commentator — and, by extension, Jim — was denounced as a sellout, Obama acolyte, etc. And it went downhill from there. Actions like this are the reason that this place has become what some of you were most afraid of when I and others were commenting here with much greater regularity: an echo chamber.
On the plane, I read a blistering critique in Newsweek of Obama’s foreign policy by Jamie Rubin, ex-Clinton State Department. It was tough, but respectful. No ulterior motives were imputed — Rubin just said, Obama’s wrong — and here’s why. I didn’t agree with his criticisms, as I think our foreign policy misadventures are the result of too much idealism, not too little. But the article gave me a lot of food for thought. In case this wasn’t already posted while I was away, here’s the article: http://www.newsweek.com/id/225784
It would be great if folks could debate this here. Is Rubin right or wrong? What are the relative merits of the idealistic approach versus the realpolitik approach? And is it true, as Jon Meachem contends in the same issue, that Obama is trying to split the difference between both by adopting a”pragmatic idealist” approach? What are the pitfalls of that approach, and how do you make sure it’s not just a mushy collage that pleases nobody and infuriates everyone?
Many other questions come to mind. But, judging from the response to Jim, good luck trying to have such a debate here. And Jim is not an outlier. I forget his/her name, but they posted here one or two months ago, and received several scathing responses for their trouble. Homeboy/girl said, thanks, but I come here to debate issues, not to get scolded or talked down to. Lit out, and hasn’t been seen since.
So it’s a tad ironic to decry the lack of diverse opinions here. It’s entirely self-created. I’m positive that I speak for untold legions when I say that I would love to have substantive debates about policy, and politics. But I have absolutely zero interest in the kind of caustic, ad hominem exchanges that take place here most times. That is, on the infrequent occasion when some intrepid soul dares to post a more favorable take on things.