These kinds of debates always get overheated, personal, and ugly. If that’s how you guys want to roll, good luck getting posters of a different stripe. If you are in fact serious about encouraging other voices, then Jim’s initial postings did not warrant the incoming he received. It was a classic ad hominem response: instead of taking on the arguments of the commentator Jim quoted, the commentator — and, by extension, Jim — was denounced as a sellout, Obama acolyte, etc. And it went downhill from there. Actions like this are the reason that this place has become what some of you were most afraid of when I and others were commenting here with much greater regularity: an echo chamber.

On the plane, I read a blistering critique in Newsweek of Obama’s foreign policy by Jamie Rubin, ex-Clinton State Department. It was tough, but respectful. No ulterior motives were imputed — Rubin just said, Obama’s wrong — and here’s why. I didn’t agree with his criticisms, as I think our foreign policy misadventures are the result of too much idealism, not too little. But the article gave me a lot of food for thought. In case this wasn’t already posted while I was away, here’s the article: http://www.newsweek.com/id/225784

It would be great if folks could debate this here. Is Rubin right or wrong? What are the relative merits of the idealistic approach versus the realpolitik approach? And is it true, as Jon Meachem contends in the same issue, that Obama is trying to split the difference between both by adopting a”pragmatic idealist” approach? What are the pitfalls of that approach, and how do you make sure it’s not just a mushy collage that pleases nobody and infuriates everyone?

Many other questions come to mind. But, judging from the response to Jim, good luck trying to have such a debate here. And Jim is not an outlier. I forget his/her name, but they posted here one or two months ago, and received several scathing responses for their trouble. Homeboy/girl said, thanks, but I come here to debate issues, not to get scolded or talked down to. Lit out, and hasn’t been seen since.

So it’s a tad ironic to decry the lack of diverse opinions here. It’s entirely self-created. I’m positive that I speak for untold legions when I say that I would love to have substantive debates about policy, and politics. But I have absolutely zero interest in the kind of caustic, ad hominem exchanges that take place here most times. That is, on the infrequent occasion when some intrepid soul dares to post a more favorable take on things.

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. I’m off to sleep off the jet lag. Enjoy your scrum.

jim bo

You obviously don’t know the first thing about being a real Democrat. You also seem to have difficulty comprehending the written word.

BHO has stripped his tactics right out of Tricky Dick’s play book. He even found a useful idiot politician to play his attack-dog sock puppet. Mary Landrieu is channeling Spiro T. Agnew’s dark and evil soul. Seeing as she is from Louisiana it is no surprise that she is also channeling Agnew’s penchant for being bribed.

In an odd way it is a good thing that BHO decided to go full bore for Howard Dean. It is a good thing that he is acting like a photocopy of the shrub. Let him lie furiously, let him fear-monger and tell whoppers. Let him truly reveal his soulless technocrat personality. Let his epic hubris and cynicism be shown. Let the Progressive movement know exactly what they are dealing with. Let us finally get the memo of how naked this particular Chicago Political Operator and Emperor is.

By going after Dean, Obama finally proves how politically out of synch he is. Dean is no meek lamb to the slaughter. The man has some sharp elbows. Ask Hillary, she knows. Dean is the man that led an insurgency against official Washington before. He and his grass roots organizing acumen seized the DNC from the dead hand of the Beltway before. To borrow a phrase from Douglas Addams, this is a man you dare not cross without a team of Sherpas. Obama has misjudged Dean; he has let Rahm Emanuel deaden his political antennae. Dean has some real political chits he can call in. Remember his brother runs DFA. Remember Howard’s fifty state program laid the groundwork for many up and coming politicians. More importantly Howard Dean speaks to the Democratic Party’s soul. His message of rejection, his principled stand, is acid to the base metal of BHO’s shallow political gamesmanship.

Since the subject is political gamesmanship, let us dispose of one of the more absurd claims made about BHO by his partisans; that he is a fourth quarter player. If what we are witnessing now is meant by Barack’s last minute gamesmanship, then he is the most pathetic of sand lot players. The hapless Ryan Leaf of the epically awful year 2000 edition of the San Diego Chargers was a better field captain than Obama is proving to be. At least Leaf won his first two games.

The only good thing about Obama’s first year is that it now just about over. It is hard to remember a politician who so recklessly squandered the good will of the voters of the U.S. It is hard to recall a politician who was so unschooled in the realities of political Washington. It is hard to find a man or woman in the top tier of politics who so easily surrendered the field to his or her opponents. It is long past wake up and smell the coffee for Obama, someone in the White House needs to dump a 30 cup urn of hot Arabica on his thick head.

Health care reform is dead Obama’s disengaged leadership helped to kill it. He foolishly allowed the Senate its own way. Barack ignorantly telegraphed his position to hostile parties. The president early on surrendered the baby, the bathwater, the towel and the rubber duck by inviting the “principles” to participate in the process. He thought you were playing poker when what the opposition was playing was 51 card pick up. Instead of going to war against the real opponents he decided to attack one of his best ground commanders. What part of the Republican’s “we hope Obama fails” did he not understand?

One of the most dangerous things a politician can do is believe their own propaganda. Obama is acting like he really believes that he is a transformative politician. He acts like he thinks that he alone will be able to solve the partisan divide. He acts like he believes that he alone will, by the force of his wonderful personality, heal the nation by enlightened compromise. He acts like he still does not understand that the Republicans are acting in bad faith. He acts like he does not understand how degraded the opposition has become; that they have fallen into viciousness, ignorance and spite.

Not being a mind reader, one cannot really know what Barack Obama thinks or believes. One can only look at results. The results of the last year are of a politician far too full of himself for his own good. If the results are those of a self-absorbed, clueless politician with no moral center, then it high time to act as if that is Barack Obama’s default position.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/16/AR2009121602790.html

It’s a good column.

go here http://bit.ly/drug_benefit

Send a message to traitor Joe Lieberman demanding he help enact a strong single payer public option into law.

http://bit.ly/traitorjoe

Send this message wide and far. Thank you.

Remember when we used to wonder if some of these guys were actually paid by Obama’s campaign?

Another thing,strictly speaking in terms of winning and losing or I should say winners and losers I would have to say Hillary is the winner in all of this.

Oh and the fact that very few in the country support this piece of shit anymore. Perhaps the American people are smarter than given credit for, for seeing through this charade.

Perhaps the Congress and President should govern in a way that is actually to the benefit of our country and is a reflection of what the people want as opposed to what THEY THINK WE SHOULD WANT.

Take a look at what the House passes last night by I believe 3 to 5 votes, in violation of House rules, with Ms. Pelosi in full campaign mode. Shameful.

Dems don’t have a group of power bucking renegades who will stand on a line to threaten Pres. Obama with a defeat, something he wants to avert at all costs, understandably. But that’s what it would take to force a better bill.

JimMichigan, That is indeed your disease.

When politicians know they’ve got blind loyalty they will more times than not take you straight into a wall. Obama is no exception.

GaBuck says:
17 December 2009 at 11:07 am

I am under no illusion about what bill we will get. It will be a crap sandwich. But raising the roof, for me, as a political analyst, is important, because I hope it gives you and other activists the courage to contact your representatives to also raise the roof. The noise COULD bolster progressives, though I’m under no illusion that Mr. Obama gives a damn what’s in the bill as long as he gets his “win.”

One last thing. Hillary Clinton is not the issue anymore. The readers and listeners around here LONG AGO let that one go. I was over her candidacy the day she endorsed Obama. I’m proud to have voted for him in the general. However, it’s quite clear he won’t be a good president unless he’s pushed very hard.

Hey Noogan, welcome. We don’t fight the primaries here anymore. That said, you do inadvertently bring up an important topic, though it’s way off the subject. Has Deans 50-state strategy broadened the tent so wide that we no longer have actual Democrats in Congress, but just Republicans with a “D” behind their names? A discussion for another time, perhaps. Maybe someone could put up a diary on that “In the News”?

http://www.taylormarsh.com/in-the-news/

I am surprised that people are so surprised about Obama. He had no experience, no credentials, no accomplishments and a history of lying about his positions on nearly everything, from Yucca Mountain to the Iraq War to Health Care Reform in Illinois. The one thing he always had–in abundance–was a talent for charming people. I figured him for a Narcissistic Personality Disorder prior to the election, and so far, I’ve seen nothing to dissuade me of that opinion. More and more people seem to be commenting on his ego these days. In point of fact, Obama made a dirty deal with Tony Rezko to get his house; he had a history of capitulating to lobbyists and insurance companies as an Illinois legislator, or voting “present” to avoid accountability, and there were articles pointing out how he avoided work, but was quick to claim the spotlight once the work was done, while he was in the Senate. Worse–far worse in my opinion than Obama himself–is what Howard Dean did to get Obama the White House. Dean is angry now; but he was part of the DNC leadership who helped give Obama 55 delegate votes in Michigan when Obama wasn’t even on the ballot. Those delegate votes gave Obama the nomination for the Democratic Party. Yes, he still had to win the election; but given the previous 8 years of Bush, the country was ready for a new face, and Obama had just the charm to win over voters. We might have at least had Hillary Clinton as our nominee, and if she had won the election–and I do think she could have done so–we wouldn’t be dealing now with a Democratic Party in destructive mode. I applaud Howard Dean for his 50-state-strategy. But, the truth is, we are paying now for Howard Dean’s nominating debacle. And, while I agree with him completely on this bill, I know Dean must be feeling pretty bitter these days about how things have turned out. They don’t look good for Democrats. Like Bush, Obama is hurting his own party.

The fix was in once the the finance committee finalized this piece of crap. It’s what the President wants. And that was going to happen no matter what Sarah Palin had to say about “death panels”

And Jim, while there are a lot of Hillary supporters that post on this site regularly, I think most of us are justifiably cynical about using the private sector to achieve progressive goals, particularly when you’re talking about the Health Insurance industry. Methinks the public will feel that way too.

Some people just don’t know what to do when they meet a group of activists (yourselves not me, as I’m just a humble political analyst) and concerned voters who actually find ISSUES more important than propping up the latest politician. Because eventually they’ll be gone and we’ll be stuck with the damage done.

Anything to deflect the conversation from criticizing our fearless commander in chief.

Well Jim I suppose that if extortion is the only way we get “reform” then I am against the bill

Also remember, GABuck, that we’re talking about this particular bill as written. Everyone wants to continue fighting to get a better bill.

See ya, djjl, you’ve been on fire this morning. Well done, lady.

___________________

Letter from President Andy Stern to SEIU members: Where do we go from here?
By Andy Stern

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

A little over a year ago, you stood up and showed a nation that Yes, We Can. You knocked on doors, picked up phones, wrote your friends and family and neighbors and helped ring in a resounding victory. It was a win not just for a candidate, but for a people. For a country. For a promise of a better future for all of our kids and grandkids and generations to come.

And after that bright and shining day in November, you hung in there. At a time when people usually pack up, go home, and play the spectator sport of complaining about the system, you got up each and every day and did things both heroic and small to make sure that this time, we didn’t leave change to chance.

For nearly a century, Presidents and congressional leaders have debated how to fix our health insurance system. It has become a given that we can and must do better as a nation. But as surely as each generation has tried, each time, politics, special interests and scare tactics have blocked progress and made us come to believe we can’t: We can’t change, we can’t make our country better – plain and simple, we just can’t.

I am writing to you today because I believe this is the moment when we must stand as one and say enough.

We talked to more than 200,000 of our sisters and brothers all around the country as part of a Town Hall-style telephone call last week to talk about your questions, your concerns and your frustrations about what is happening in Washington with health insurance reform.

Cynthia from Maryland was worried about her health benefits being taxed.

Maria in California didn’t understand why the public option might be off the table.

Gerry from West Virginia wanted to know if he would be able to afford his health coverage.

One thing was clear: When SEIU stands up for affordable care every American can count on, we stand 2.2 million strong and ready to fight for the change our families, friends and neighbors; our patients and our nation need.

But at the very moment that we saw real and meaningful changes within our grasp, one Senator came forward to say “no we can’t.” He can’t let the Senate have an up-or-down vote on health insurance reform.

And the result of this Senator saying “we can’t?” The public option is declared impossible. Americans cannot purchase Medicare at an earlier age. The health insurance reform effort we have needed for a century is at risk.

SEIU does not accept that this monumental effort – that this reform that is so necessary to the health and wellbeing of our economy, our families and our future – can be over without a fight. A fight to make it work for you and your families.

Last night, we held a meeting with your International Executive Board–leaders from across the country. Leaders who know you, who understand what you are going through, and above all else, who believe that every one of you deserves a chance to weigh in on our next steps.

We talked about everything that makes this reform meaningful:

* The 30 million more people who will have healthcare they can count on;
* The people who will no longer lose their coverage if they get sick;
* All of us who no longer have to worry about being denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions;
* Women who will no longer be discriminated against just because of their gender.
* But we also recognized, that like you, we have concerns.

And while it is not entirely clear what the Senate bill will look like, it is becoming clearer that:

* For many people, care will still be too expensive to afford.
* Some of you would face an additional burden because your health insurance benefits would be taxed.
* And the best way we saw possible to hold insurance companies accountable was no longer an option.

So we asked ourselves – and we are asking you – the most critical question we have of this entire debate: where do we go from here?

We know we will fight. We will continue to fight for everything we know is important. We will fight to make care affordable. We will fight for real health insurance reforms. We will fight for employers to provide their employees with coverage. And, we will fight to pay for all of it responsibly without a tax on your benefits.

But we aren’t the only ones who must fight.

President Obama must remember his own words from the campaign. His call of “Yes We Can” was not just to us, not just to the millions of people who voted for him, but to himself. We all stood shoulder to shoulder with the President during his hard fought campaign. And, we will continue to stand with him but he must fight for the reform we all know is possible. He must fight for Cynthia, Maria, and Gerry – for every American.

Our challenge to you, to the President, to the Senate and to the House of Representatives is to fight. Now, more than ever, all of us must stand up, remember what health insurance reform is all about, and fight like hell to deliver real and meaningful reform to the American people.

In Solidarity,
Andy Stern

Here are two questions for you djjl, answer one honestly.

Do you think Joe Lieberman is going away, Ben Nelson, Olympia Snowe? Do you think the health care industry is going to lie down and let it get any better than it already is?

No, Lieberman, Nelson, Snowe – and I can name others – aren’t going way.

I’m making an assumption that your question is -Is the health care industry interested in health care or their bottom line? -They are interested in their bottom line and any concern about the quality and availability of care is only as it relates to a pipeline to their bottom line.

I read about the accomplishments Obama has made and if you read my posts you would know so. I give him credit where credit is due – not much has been due and he’s pissed away a lot of opportunity. I don’t spew hatred and don’t post anything that could be construed by a reasonable mind as being from a Republican perspective. You must be equating deeply felt criticisms of Obama’s policy with hatred. They aren’t equivalent. I’ve acknowledged and praised him on this site – but you are apparently a recent interloper and are unaware.

I know a lot of people without health insurance. I don’t know anyone now that has cancer that can’t afford proper treatment. But as a 4 time cancer survivor, I am quite aware of the issues involved and the extent to which the insurancy industry holds sway over care. I know a lot of college kids without health insurance and pretty much the only reason to be without it is because it is unaffordable. I have 2 young adult daughters with pre-existing conditions according to the insurance industry. Obama is far more likely to be identified as a Republican based on the principles he’s embraced and acted on as POTUS. If you want to be pissed off at one lacking compassion for people and the miserable state of health insurance, pull your head out of his back side and look Obama in the face.

I don’t recognize any passion from you for the people you’ve mentioned. What I recognize is fealty to Obama and all that may imply.

and it is extortion to mandate that people buy coverage from a private insurer just so insurance companies will cover pre-existing conditions. How many families of 4 making 54,000 dollars a year do you think can afford a crappy policy that costs them 500 bucks a month WITH SUBSIDIES? How much higher will that be by the time this is implemented in 2014? Some have estimated that by then the cost of insurance will be twice what it is now.

Republicans are gonna kill Democrats no matter what they pass, but once they get their teeth into the issue of mandates without any public policy in place, the Democrats are toast. And frankly if they force coverage on people without a non-profit Government run plan they should be. I don’t know if I’m a progressive or not, but I’m tired of having a bunch sell-outs chastise me because I can’t see the virtue of something that is less worse than worst