updated below
Bob McDonnell won the Virginia governorship because he was running against a pitifully weak Democratic candidate, but also because he used economic discontent, something Frank Rich talks about today, which extends to health care, while utilizing Democrats in Washington as the target model, tapping into what independents are feeling right now, while simultaneously capitalizing on a demoralized Democratic base and an energized Republican electorate out for political blood. Nowhere to be seen was McDonnell’s Pat Robertson, right-wing past, with his economic message even able to overcome his disastrous thesis that basically branded women as only good to be barefoot and pregnant. It’s the McDonnell model, which I talked about in psychodrew’s “In the News” diary, this quote from a conservative blog the key:
I heard Brown on a few talk shows and he is smart to not uncork too much rabid conservative issues, keeping with the economic angles and staying away from the hot social issues that got the GOP in hot water in 2006 and 2008.
I know I’m a broken record on this, but without right-wing radio, the McDonnell model’s success isn’t possible. That Fox News is thriving while other networks are dying is another example of how the stage is being set. Just read the profile about Ailes in the New York Times today.
In Massachusetts against Martha Coakley, someone who I’ve interviewed and know is as strong a female senator as we’re ever going to get, the McDonnell model is being used again, with the current trend very confused at this point, with PPP showing Scott Brown, her Republican opponent, ahead, the Boston Globe reporting otherwise. Brown is focusing on the economic issues, including negative talking points against “Obamacare,” to pummel Coakley senseless. From the Globe:
Democrat Martha Coakley, buoyed by her durable statewide popularity, enjoys a solid, 15-percentage-point lead over Republican rival Scott Brown as the race for US Senate enters the homestretch, according to a new Boston Globe poll of likely voters.
Half of voters surveyed said they would pick Coakley, the attorney general, if the election were held today, compared with 35 percent who would pick Brown. Nine percent were undecided, and a third candidate in the race, independent Joseph L. Kennedy, received 5 percent.
Coakley’s lead grows to 17 points – 53 percent to 36 percent – when undecideds leaning toward a candidate are included in the tally. The results indicate that Brown has a steep hill to climb to pull off an upset in the Jan. 19 election. Indeed, the poll indicated that nearly two-thirds of Brown’s supporters believe Coakley will win.
Democrats shouldn’t take any chances, as PPP is not Rasmussen.
As an aside and looking ahead, the McDonnell model is Mitt Romney’s playbook.
As for the final days in the Massachusetts race, Democrats should mobilize hard, poll later. Because losing Massachusetts, Ted Kennedy’s seat no less, would have catastrophic reverberations, including on health care. It would inspire a collective cave in from congressional Democrats that would leave us with only the Senate bill, which is a disastrous gift for Republicans that could be utilized as a rallying cry, that when coupled with the McDonnell it’s the economy model, with cultural issues left untouched could be real trouble for Democrats going forward, as well as for policy, if they succeed. Because “cultural” issues, aka civil rights for women and gays to mention just too, but also DADT, would be the first policy victims if Republicans gain power.
The Republican in to the voters’ hearts is the economy, of which health care is a huge part, mainly due to the disastrous leadership of Obama and the Democrats, who let the right hijack the message and sew talking points into the broader electorate that allows the economy to be a cudgel. Massachusetts now a bell rung on what’s at stake, as well as what else will be in jeopardy if we lose Teddy’s seat.
UPDATE (1.11): Polling today shows Coakley with solid lead, so whatever the PPP polling revealed, it sure jolted everyone awake.
It’s hardly The McDonnell Economic Model, and it doesn’t depend on right-wing radio. After all, “It’s the economy, stupid” has its own Wikipedia page.
Continued promises of peace, prosperity, healthcare and a chicken in every pot are taken by the voters, who aren’t stupid, for the pitiful political prattle that they are. The economic problems on the other hand, losing jobs and housing, are here and now.
The Democrats are in charge. The economy is in the toilet. Them’s the facts. Why should the voters believe that the Democrats will make the economy better even if they tell the voters that they will? All the Republicans have to say is that the economy stinks and the Democrats are in charge. So vote for me, Mr. or Ms. Republican, and I will improve it. The Democrats are in a dark room and all the Republicans have to do is keep gyrating the flashlight around from wall to ceiling and never show anybody where the door really is. It’s a pretty neat trap set up by bush and the Republicans if you think about it. Peace
Imhotep… I agree.. Whoever took over.. POTUS / Congress.. after the Bush years was in trouble from the start. There were such high expectations… and Obama was perceived as Superman.. the one who would save us. But was it possible for ANYONE to save us? We’ll see…
Obama, could save himself and the Congress could save themselves by ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan immediately. The Right will vote against every Democrat no matter what they do. But, if the Democrats lose the energy of the Left to donate and work for them then the game is over. Up until now the Democrats have not shown any willingness to energize the Left. That’s cool. I like baseball and spring training is fast approaching and it ain’t cheap to buy season tickets. Peace
Hey, I’m willin ta kick in $5 towards yer ticket!
It’s how McDonnell won in Virginia, which the GOP hopes to bottle in other races. This depends on sidelining the cultural issues. It’s beyond the “economy, stupid,” which I was writing about when it first came out. The cultural issues continued to burn simultaneously. Rep. plan to cordon them off.
Anyone diminishing right-wing radio’s power in elections hasn’t been paying attention. It never surprises though, because this denseness to their local & national power to energize get out the vote is something on which Rep. count.
I see an ominous parallel between the accounts of Hillary’s 2008 campaign discussed in Taylor’s preious post and the senate campaign in MA. These days, overconfidence on our part is toxic. It is the ECONOMY and we are now having to tiptoe around the health care bills because of it.
The good news is that the PPP polling, right or wrong, will light a fire under Dems at the end, which is when the energy is needed most.
I think we need to put medicine for attention deficit disorder in the water supply! I wish it were not true but Taylor is right. It’s the economy even though Republican policies over the last 30 years have led us to this point.I know,I know enabled by Dems.
I watched Peter Hart(Democratic pollster) and Bill McInturff(Repub pollster) who have been doing the NBC/Wallstreet Poll together for the last twenty years, this morning on C-span.
In a nutshell
Congress
Generic question Repub vs Dem control of congress
registered voters +2% Dems
likely voters +8% Repubs
people who vote in an off year election = old,white,people with the most energy.
McInturff said the intensity numbers of the people who are unhappy with the President are almost unique they are so incredibly cranked up.
12% mad at both parties 28% strongly want a new party
There is broad anger out there at all institutions and their ability to solve problems.
view of congress is devastatingly negative.
Pelosi’s numbers are toxic.
Regard for congress overall lower than ’94 and ’06
Independents mad at Obama for not keeping the campaign promise for transparency.
They speculated that we could have five years of unemployment numbers as they are today.They have no precedent for how that would affect polls in their personal histories.
AA community polls high positive for the President (I worry that this is giving Ramn and Axelrod a false sense of security and skews the Dem approval numbers.)
Of course this country is crazy to think that changing parties will correct the problems. It is very frustrating because there is a strong impluse in this country that things are all wrong but no outlet for their anger other than voting repub (we all know the definition of insanity) or staying home. The system is so rigged against the people.There are really very few districts that are even competitive.
I lifted this from the comments section from another site. I think it has a lot of wisdom in it. Sorry for the length.
I am a 70 year old female. My parents were the swing generation from working class to middle class. I have a masters degree in computer science and am retired. I am married to a Keynesian economist, but one who is not on to POTUS and thinks I am uncharitable. My sister and I are supposedly middle class but in 1991, I consciously abandoned the middle class for my working class roots.
Why?
The corporation I worked for dumped an entire department of 75 people. However, it was not the loss of the job itself that turned me back, it was the gratuitous cruelty involved in the matter. I thought if it’s simply an economic matter for the firm, why not make it as easy as possible for every one involved?
Instead, we were told repeatedly how awful we were and how glad they would be to get rid of us, but they couldn’t fire us until we finished our projects. And that’s just the general atmosphere. That doesn’t include the individual acts of cruelty by corporate leaders against vulnerable employees.
I decided at that point that the middle class – especially the white collar middle class – was an illusion. I don’t care how professional your job is, what kind of degree you have – if you depend on a paycheck for your living and someone else has the say-so about whether you get that paycheck or not, you are not middle class, you are working class. The sooner people wake up to that reality, the quicker we’ll find political solutions to our problems.
Having been asleep during Nixon, Reagan, and Bush I, and then the 2000 election, I woke up. With the shock of the 2000 election, I thought surely the Democratic Party would wake up. In 2004, I began to realize that there were problems with my party.
Lake Lady says:
10 January 2010 at 3:35 pm
Excellent post, Lake Lady. Truth is there is less and less distinction between the parties. We have two corporate parties.
Lake Lady says:
10 January 2010 at 3:35 pm I don’t care how professional your job is, what kind of degree you have – if you depend on a paycheck for your living and someone else has the say-so about whether you get that paycheck or not, you are not middle class, you are working class. The sooner people wake up to that reality, the quicker we’ll find political solutions to our problems.
How true. This is a wake up call.
Thanks Ramsgate. You are right. There is a strong will out there right now but more people need to wake up.I don’t think anyone who depends on a paycheck is safe in this country right now.
There are some in the so called “progressive creative class” who think they are okay.They tend to have been big Obama people.They thumbed their noses at the working class during the primary. They might be all right now. Nothing is sure about their future. If our country cannot figure out an intelligent way to face our problems it is all going to get worse.
lynnette…I know. There needs to be a broad working class party.
Thank you to all of you!
I’ve been watching this debate the last couple of days, and have to ask myself, whats a liberal/progressive to do? If I didn’t know better I would of thought I stumbled onto Red State by mistake. It seems that some on the left feel that Obama and Dems have betrayed them, and there ready to bolt. Things are just not going fast enough for them, so its time to trash the President, burn the Democrats in congress, and feel betrayed.
This is what happens to Democrats every time they get power. The party of the big tent comes back to bite them. The party of minority’s, progressives, moderates and conservative democrats can’t seem to hold together, one side always ends up feeling betrayed, and takes his ball and goes home. Until this year Republicans have never had this problem because they have always been a small tent party. Unlike Democrats, the Republican party will come together and vote themselves back into power come 2010.
So I have to ask myself, whats the big picture? As a person of the left, do I continue to trash Obama because he’s not liberal enough or do I try to hang in there and take small victory’s and not help Republicans bring down the Democrats?
I have no problem expressing my dislike of things Democrats do that I don’t like, but I don’t see any balance as of late in some of the so called progressive blogs. They seem to be sounding more like Red State then progressive blogs.
Angels~ Hey are you freezing up there? We are freezing down here!
I just skimmed back through the comments in this thread and I don’t see any Obama bashing. You can’t be happy about all the wins corporations have been getting in the last year? Don’t count Imhotep…thats what he does.
angels81 says:
10 January 2010 at 8:20 pm
Hi angels. If you look under Lake Lady’s “In the News” post on Women’s Rights are Human Rights, the latter half of the thread is about what you are saying. I have a response in there to pmichael.
angels81 says:
10 January 2010 at 8:20 pm
_________________
I agree with you. Indeed, I would go even further. The Obama trashing is not a problem; after enough of it, it becomes the functional equivalent of white noise. It fades into the background, a source of bemusement but precious little else.
What is a problem is the increasing fascination with the tea party movement. It’s hard to understand that one. Well, not very hard, as there is a superficial appeal. One can understand the surface appeal of Sarah Palin. One can also understand the surface appeal of the populist strains of the tea partiers. Especially in this economic environment.
But when you look deeper, what is there? In what sense do progressives really share the principles of the tea partiers? Sarah Palin cannot name any Supreme Court decision she disagrees with, save one: Roe v. Wade. How do the feminists feel about that? How about progressives and tax policy? How about progressives and immigration policy? How about progressives and expanded health care? How about progressives and gun violence? The questions write themselves, and they go on and on.
So cling, if you will, to the fig leaf that progressives have something in common with the tea party populists. You don’t, and you never have. Their brand of populism carries within it a very dark skein of xenophobia, know-nothingness, authoritarianism and general distemper that is the antithesis of the progressive movement. If you don’t like Obama’s style of leadership, fine. It’s not for everyone. But if your dismay makes you more receptive to the overtures of a Sarah Palin or a Mitt Romney, the joke is really on you.
ture. right wing populism is verrry dangerous that is why so many of us cry out for the dems to suceed somewhere here. check out tx monthly guys. rick perry, the guv here in tx, is on its cover about 2012. rick perry i would say has been much more in tune with the tea bag set than even palin. rick perry is running on the gov t doesnt work. the senate doesnt work. the house doesnt. the putus doesnt. so maybe we need something radically right wing. something different than we have had as a republic. im not talking bush right wing either. go further. rick perry is the premiere tea party candidate. he has called for secession and they love him for it. now perry want to cripple the ability of austin to raise any tax at all. rick perry is very anti choice. the most anti choice guv in america. the fact that kay baily is no longer seen as consrvative enough by the base in tx is scary. this feels like a bad movie. rick perry could be president. dems laugh. its the folks dems laugh at that often win ala bush. lets hope this movie ends better than 1933′s.
“I agree with you. Indeed, I would go even further. The Obama trashing is not a problem; after enough of it, it becomes the functional equivalent of white noise. It fades into the background, a source of bemusement but precious little else.”
I don’t agree at all. Constructive critisizim and stating truths is one thing. A none stop drumbeat of hate all things Obama might become white noise(did you INTEND to make a GREAT pun there ogenec?!) to posters here but to the electorate it becomes the pavlovian reaction. Obama=BAD.
I also agree. While the economy is a priority, probably the MOST important one, it is ESSENTIAL to keep reminding folks just how shit house rat crazy and delussional the repugnantklaners are.
ogenec says:
10 January 2010 at 10:42 pm
I agree with you on this.
The Republican elephant busts every plate in the China shop and blames the Democratic Donkey for not putting all the plates back together and trumpets this to the public.
secularhumanizinevoluter says:
11 January 2010 at 5:54 am
did you INTEND to make a GREAT pun there ogenec?!
__________________________
Seriously, no. I just meant that, last year, I would have suited up and engaged in fierce battle in the Obama-bashing threads. These days, I just chuckle as I read, and keep it moving. I’ve become inured. Overexposure will do that to you.
But on the larger populace front, I agree with you — the rabidness of the commentary is cause for concern. All the more reason to be alarmed that so-called progressives are setting the stage for defections to the tea party movement. For shame.
angels81 says:
10 January 2010 at 8:20 pm
The progress and mismanagement of health care in 2009 is Obama and the Dems fault. If they suck it up & take the Senate bill it’s a pitiful end of their own choosing. Long ago they could have gone with 51 votes & reconciliation to get a very good bill. That’s just reality.
Supporting Dems when they don’t deserve it, after selling women, gays out, while the entire Dem leadership has proved an embarrassment in 2009, is political co-dependency and many people are through with it. Who can blame them?
People don’t owe the Democrats anything considering what they’ve accomplished so far.
texan4hillary says:
10 January 2010 at 10:57 pm
Even as worried as you are, t4h, you illustrate that there’s no way you’d go tea party. The whining from Obama die hards that this is going to happen is just silly. But you also have seen first hand the discontent of voters. Democrats have lost some key support, and though many still like Obama personally, they have doubts about his leadership and that of the Democrats. For good reason.
Lake Lady says:
10 January 2010 at 3:35 pm
There are problems with the party, LL, and it’s clear they aren’t going to be solved by enabling this current crew who couldn’t find the leadership wheel with the entire country supporting them, the press supporting Obama openly, and a super majority.
Voting weak Dems back in isn’t the answer.
lynnette says:
11 January 2010 at 6:20 am
Let me clarify: I don’t think progressives and tea party has any commonality other than people are unhappy with the way things are (but for different reasons).
The journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step, we are told. We also are told that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Watch this space in the coming months. Right now, the official line is confined to touting Sarah Palin’s “relevance.” She is THE most influential person, we are told. She’s setting the agenda, and has chutzpah, grit, and courage to burn. She’s one tough lady. And just like another tough lady dear to our collective heart, the mainstream media is out to get her. They continue to diminish her. How was it put the other day? Ah yes: the Left is not giving Sarah Palin enough credit. Her death panel screed wasn’t just a teensy-weensy mistruth; it was a “whopper that worked.” She may stand for everything we oppose, and we may oppose everything she stands for, but give her her due: She Tells Big Fat Lies. That Work. Hot damn, I’m sold. Put that on some buttons and bumper stickers, stat!
We are beginning to see the evolution of this place (or, more accurately, devolution) from one that simply makes the argument for Palin’s relevance to one that says “Hey, she’s not half-bad.” Thus, the exhortation to Republicans — who are definitely listening — to train her up. Depending on how that particular angle is received, and developments in the coming year, it will morph again, to more or less explicit backing of her candidacy. The absurd Hillary analogy will be pressed, for consumption by the pliable and malleable. And like a circus act, some here will contort themselves into incredible positions to make the “progressive” case for her. Oh, you’ll feel dirty in the morning, I know. Luckily, in the final analysis, it won’t work. There is a limit to the Groucho Marx routine (“Who are you gonnna believe? Me or your own lying eyes?!?!?”) and the notion of a President Sarah Palin is several clicks past that line.
Bottom-line: GeoT called it way back when, and he’s 100% on point. Pmichael, given the number of Sarah Palin-related posts we’ve had to endure in just the past few months, do you still think GeoT was crazy? That’s a rhetorical question. We all know the answer.
I’ll say this again. Obama and his leadership, or lack thereof, is not the issue. The issue is how real (not situational) progressives and the pragmatist crowd can make common cause to bring about the policy changes we all want. Each side needs the other. But nothing good has ever come of movements that consist of factions cojoined by nothing more than populism. Don’t let anyone run that game on you.
Ogenec,
Do you think anyone here would vote for Sarah Palin? Is that what you’re saying? I think there is a difference between analyzing her impact/strategies/political future and actually being for her. I know I couldn’t vote for her just because I’m an issues voter, and SP and I are polar opposites on the issues. It might well take leadership or some attention to get the progressives and pragmatists on board together. Isn’t leadership fair game for analysis?
lynnette says:
11 January 2010 at 10:31 am
________________
Not sure if anyone would. But it won’t be for want of trying here.
And, yes, leadership is fair game for analysis. But why should it take some external force to get the progressives and pragmatists on board? Wht can’t everyday folks like you and I do it? That’s what I’m missing. If blogging merely reinforces already-held views, then I fail to see the point of it.
Contending that Sarah Palin isn’t “relevant” is what people do who don’t write about the political national scene and what goes beyond party cheerleading. The fact is that because of the lack of Dem message Sarah Palin’s “death panels” squeal did work. I know it’s uncomfortable for die hard partisans to accept, but the evidence supports it, if nothing else, then from the final bill we’ll get in the Senate, which is mainly due to Tea Partiers knocking Dems off message and on to defense and damage control. It’s an indictment on the Democratic leadership, as well as the media, but it is still a fact.
I’ve said this for a very long time. I was a writer, with political analysis and culture issues the focus, long before blogging was born. For me, blogging is a platform, not what I do. I know that’s hard for newcomers to the scene to get, but that’s the nut of it. Being part of “new media” is where I fit in, because I am not and have never pretended to be what is called a “movement progressive,” represented by t4h, democratz and many others around here, who do grass roots organizing and working for candidates.
If any of you are looking for party line validation you won’t find it here, except when earned. As long time readers know, pushing 14 years on the web now, that’s not what I do or have ever done. It certainly isn’t what I intend to do going forward. People expecting me to ignore national political trends and phenomenons will also be disappointed. There are plenty of people out there who prop up bad actions by the Dems because they aren’t Rep, contending that’s good enough. I’m not one of them.
When all else fails, pull out the noob attack line, eh? Well. First, the blogging comment was directed at lynnette. By which I meant, ordinary folk who don’t do political commentary for a living should be agents of change. Instead of clamoring for leadership, provide it. What prevents the readers of blogs such as this, the Moderate Voice, the Washington Note etc. from saying — Enough of the friendly fire. Some of us are progressives, some pragmatists, and here is where we think there is common ground for the changes we’d like to see. Nothing, so far as I can tell.
And yes, I confess. I’m not a long-time reader. First came here in 2007. But I am highly-skilled reader. 99th percentile verbal aptitude, in fact. I have the LSAT and GMAT scores to prove it. And I know advocacy masquerading as reportage when I see it.
Now if ‘some’ would be a bit less myopic concerning certain public personalities the overall political situation could be improved dramatically. Peace
ogenec says:
11 January 2010 at 11:16 am
First of all, I wasn’t aware that citing someone as being new at anything was an “attack line,” simply a statement of fact, which you yourself admit, so let’s dispense with that. Now, jumping across your egocentricity, advocacy doesn’t preclude reportage (that can be seen easily when I report & write from foreign policy forums, White House events, etc.), nor does it prohibit opinion or analysis, all of which is easy to discern for those honestly trying.
People are upset that Pres. Obama is getting deservedly hammered around here, as well as other sites. So again, for ogenec and others who don’t get what I do. I don’t write for approval of progressives or those who advocate “enough of the friendly fire.” I don’t write for the benefit of the Democratic Party masses. I’m a liberal writer who seeks something much larger.
If anyone can’t take the reporting, political analysis and opinion around here, well, you have softer, gentler sites that will mollify your angst. I have no intention of not telling the truth as I see it, which last time I looked didn’t have a Democratic, progressive, or Republican bias.
TM NOTE: That’s it from me on this one, but y’all continue to have at it. I so enjoy reading all of your comments, even when I don’t jump in.
Taylor Marsh says:
11 January 2010 at 11:32 am
________________
You say that so forcefully that one is (almost) convinced you believe it. I don’t. It’s pure advocacy, as the next few months will make even more clear. And you’re the one who keeps name-checking Obama. I don’t care that Obama is getting hammered around here. And, I’m pretty sure, neither does he. I care that you are acting as handmaiden for Palin and Romney. But you know that. The incessant invocation of Obama is deliberate, to engender the Pavlovian response Sec accurately described.
ogenec says:
11 January 2010 at 10:39 am
I hear you. In an ideal world, it would be wonderful for us to get together to be the change vs. some outside force, but today there are so many more powerful forces than us in collusion, and I think they are winning. People are upset about that. Ogenec, people did try to effect change in health care through the blogs, etc. and while most of the country wanted some kind of public option or true competition, the lobbyists won. But I don’t want to give up, either. I guess if you look at history, it’s usually taken a leader to effect change, usually a charismatic one that people will follow and believe in. That doesn’t mean we can’t have more everyday leaders around like we the people – I guess we should. So I agree with you on that.
Well, I haven’t seen this many absolutely absurd comments in a long time.
BTW, I think Obama called those “situational ” progressives voters in 2008 – likely pollsters referred to them as “independents.”
lynnette says:
11 January 2010 at 11:53 am
________________
I really don’t think it would be that hard. Here’s a specific example of what I’m thinking about. Last week or so, Cujo359 put up an excellent diary on economics on FireDogLake. I didn’t agree with the thrust of it, but he/she asked some excellent questions, sans rancor. That could spark discussion and debate with people from my side of things, and we could begin to look for candidates who lent credence to the concerns of both.
Here’s another. For all her faults, and they are legion
, kris has been making an argument about the essential inability of government to create jobs. She argues that government will simply make a bad situation worse. I think there’s some truth to that, although IMHO she overstates the case, and we should explore it in a much more profound way than we have to date. If we did, I suspect we would get to a place where we would agree on 60-70% of the issues, agree to disagree on about 20%, and vehemently disagree on the remaining 10% or so.
So my question is, why don’t we focus on what we can agree on (or at least agree to disagree)? Perhaps once we got through that, we’d find that the remaining 10% is not as insoluble as we’d supposed. Working together on difficult issue has the ancillary benefit of broadening people’s perspectives. And I believe that change comes from the ground up, not the top down. Just my view.
So Taylor says we don’t owe the Democratic party anything, and I agree with that statement. What I don’t hear is what progressives and liberals should do to make the party work for us. All I see on these blogs are what a terrible job the Dems are doing and how upset people are about it. I don’t hear people asking, what do we do to get people like Senator Nelson out of office, and get a more progressive in.
Does anyone think if McCain had won, we would be talking about healthcare at all? We would have another right wing Supreme Court Justice instead of the good women we got. Does anyone think unemployment benefits would have been extended? Do you think there would have been any stimulus money at all? None of this would have happened.
The healthcare bill may only be a tiny step in the right direction, but its better then no step, and if we work to better the Democratic party, we can build on this bill. If we lose it all, and Republicans regain control in 2010, we will lose even the small steps this messy coalition has gained.
So I ask the question I asked up thread. Whats a liberal/progressive to do? I would like to hear more positive ideas, and less bitching and trashing, leave that to the other side, they are much more a threat to me then this messy big tent coalition.
ogenec says:
11 January 2010 at 12:31 pm
I see your points.
angels81 says:
11 January 2010 at 12:41 pm What I don’t hear is what progressives and liberals should do to make the party work for us.
Any ideas out there? It certainly seems the conservadems hold the power. That’s not what I voted for, anyway.
“but its better then no step, and if we work to better the Democratic party, we can build on this bill.”
Do you think that will really happen? I’m not sure.
I’m not so sure it’s better than no step based on what I know of it as it stands today. What progressive/liberals/independents are being told is -”eat your gruel and shut up or you won’t get anything.”
Because if we complain that we aren’t getting what we want, what we asked for, and what we voted for; well, then it’s our fault when those we relied on don’t deliver. What do you think it would take for Obama and crew to actually act like they wanted REAL CHANGE. Not just happy to empty the pockets “change” of the american people. Thats redistribution of wealth apparently they can believe in – straight to health insurance companies and other big business via Wall Street.
Shut up or you just may get less gruel and we’ll charge you more for it. What power do you think you have anyway? Ballot box – oh surely you jest. You can’t afford the ballot box that counts.
lynnette, it won’t happen if liberals and progressives get fed up and walk away. For me what makes this so hard is the fact that the Democratic party has always been made up of minority’s, poor, working class, moderates and conservatives. With that many groups, who sometimes have their own agenda, it becomes so much harder to please everyone. Republicans because they are more of one mindset don’t have the problem that Democrats have, so its much easier for them to always vote as a block.
Like it or not, we are stuck with a two party system. To gain power to do anything, it will be within one of those two party’s. That’s why from my point of view, we need to do less tearing down and more effort in fixing whats wrong, instead of just bitching and airing our anger.
djjl, so whats your answer? Just walk away, and let right wing Republicans run the country again? I suppose the other thing you can do is sit around and bitch about how bad the Democrats are, and how they are no better then Republicans, or we can try to change the Democratic party more to our liking. And yes, this shitty healthcare bill is better then what we have right now, just ask anyone who has been dropped by their insurance company because of a pre-existing condition or someone who has no health insurance at all.
I have given you no indication that I
consider “walking away” an option. I think that keeping my mouth shut is also not an option.
I am very aware of health care and insurance and I’m not convinced that this is anything to be crowing about.
The only way we’ve gotten anything is to have dragged the DINO POTUS and his political team by kicking and screaming that this is NOT the CHANGE we want. Obama either needs to be a Democrat and lead the Democratic Party or, as one who believes in the 2 party system, I’ll keep fighting in EVERY way I can to find a REAL DEMOCRAT to lead the party.
angels81 says:
11 January 2010 at 1:50 pm For me what makes this so hard is the fact that the Democratic party has always been made up of minority’s, poor, working class, moderates and conservatives. With that many groups, who sometimes have their own agenda, it becomes so much harder to please everyone. Republicans because they are more of one mindset don’t have the problem that Democrats have, so its much easier for them to always vote as a block.
That’s very true, angels. I know.
Listening to this economics reporter on MSNBC is infuriating. It’s hey, these folks got all this money legally. It doesn’t matter that they literally stole money from Main Street – but hey – they bought their hold up guns legally. This fella is in some Wall Street pockets – there’s a point at which trying to blame Glass-Steagall will get the opposite efect and let the public know how it had essentially died a natural death over many, many years.
djjl says:
11 January 2010 at 2:20 pm I think that keeping my mouth shut is also not an option.
You must be a Democrat. Sounds like my family.
Want a little background on how, in 2001, big banks were fighting tooth and nail to get directly into real estate and mortgage business:
http://www.realtor.org/banks_and_commerce.nsf/Pages/banks_in_real_estate?OpenDocument
djjl, well you must already have health insurance, but for my sister who has crohn’s disease and can’t get health insurance, this bill is CHANGE for her and thousands like her. So I guess its were you are sitting as too if this bill is change or not.
I still think we would have a better chance at all this if there was public financing of campaigns. Can we fight for that? The money that has been spent to buy off conservadems and repubs is astounding. That’s why the parties have moved to the right in part.
angels81 says:
11 January 2010 at 2:33 pm
Good point. If this bill passes, you will have to let us know how your sister makes out with health insurance, although it’s not supposed to kick in for a few years. Angels, would she be affected right away?
There is MORE involved than just that one issue. You’ve not seen me speak against passing health care – even this pitiable version.
Yeah, as you likely have seen me say before – I have long had health care and what would be considered good health care. My plan is a self-insured plan administered by a company.
Both of my young adult daughters have pre-existing conditions – so, if you want to measure from an “in your own back yard” problem – I’ve got it. They have crumby insurance, with this bill, it is likely to get worse – just not worse as fast.
So, how do you think one should go about demanding REAL health insurance reform if your advice is to keep your mouth shut and don’t let the POTUS or Democrats know it matters? It matters a lot.
I don’t think we should keep our mouths, shut. It does matter a lot.
I just resent the hell out of the POTUS giving away most of what should have been negotiated in health care. He’s happy with a version of health care/insurance reform in name only for the most part. But you must be happy to have essentially let the insurance industry draw up their own reform. I want to know why is health insurance the only business that has an exemption from the Sherman Anti-Trust Act other than Major League Baseball?
Obviously, angels81, I’m happy if your sister benefits. I’m happy for any benefit to those in need. I’m just not to damn happy for fee for service medical care, for profit medical care that insures that physicians grow to not understand how their patient comes non-compliant (can’t afford meds, drs trips, etc), not too damn happy about the outrageous salaries paid to the health care for profit industries, just not too damn happy on how little was accomplished when so much is needed.
My husband and I just returned from an expected Christmas week trip to visit a friend who was near death. He is currently recovering, but we were informed last Thursday that his insurance company doesn’t thing he should have therapy because – oh you know – the are the pre-existing Death Panel – the ones Sarah Palin either doesn’t know ar is lying about. My guess she’s lying.
So while I’m fortunate to have health care, I’m surrounded by those I deeply love who are not. I also know what it is like to not personally have health care due to a pre-existing condition. I know what impact the insurance company and employers rules had on my care and my family’s income. I know and I know it isn’t simple. But it didn’t need to be this hard had Obama shown leadership. I hold HIM directly responsible for the feebleness of this bill.
And if I don’t make sure he and other Democrats in power KNOW I want better than what we’ve gotten – well, I surely won’t get it.
Gotta go -bbl.
Interesting:
“For almost the entirety of the health care debate, the Obama Administration has relied on economist Jonathan Gruber to make the public case for its idea of reform – even the most unpopular parts. But as Firedoglake revealed on Friday, the Obama Administration has failed to disclose that it paid the same economist more than $780,000.
Jonathan Gruber’s work has been cited by the White House, Members of Congress, and countless media outlets, but not once did the Obama Administration disclose it was paying him more than $780,000 in tax dollars. ”
email fro FDL