The exploding head version to match the Turkish ambassador’s offensiveness can be found in Charles Krauthammer’s column today.
Turkey meets the Israeli government stupidity, then raises them using a historically incendiary phrase.
In an unfortunate turn of phrase, the Turkish ambassador to Washington twice said Friday that the terrorist group Hamas is a necessary and important part of the “final solution” to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. [...] “For a final solution, you cannot ignore Hamas. That’s what we are saying,” said Ambassador Namik Tan. “This is not the first time that we are trying to bring this into the discussion. We have told this to the Israelis, to our American friends, to our international interlocutors, everyone. How could you imagine a final solution without Hamas?”
Everyone in the Middle East has gone mad.
We’re caught in the middle.
The American right, on whatever political side you see it, is now engaged in a race to the bottom, which is tribalism on steroids. It’s an affliction that means supporting Israel no matter what they do, no matter how outrageous their behavior, even when it could end up costing the US every other ally we’ve got, including those helping us to fight Islamic extremism. Exhibit A for this condition is Liz Cheney, who has released a statement. It’s preening neoconservatism talking points.
There is no reasoning with leaders on either side of the flotilla disaster, or the ones caught in the throes of derangement, though the Obama administration continues to try. Frankly, we should wash our hands of it, as there is no evidence whatsoever that we can appease either parties. Turkey wants us to condemn Israel, which Obama will not do; and Israel expects unquestioning support, even when they dig in against an independent investigation. Can there be any doubt they’re even afraid of their own report after Goldstone landed with such a resounding slam?
David Ignatius quotes Chas Freeman: “If you’re not at the table, you’re on the menu.” Where we are concerned, nonsense. Israel is being an irresponsible partner to the U.S. We are getting nothing for our allegiance. There should be consequences to such insulting, disrespectful arrogance by the Netanyahu government.
One thing is real and that is that Israel has to deal with Hamas at some point. They have committed terrorism, but thanks to George W. Bush, they are also elected.
On the other hand, playing the other side, how can Israel engage Hamas when they are still holding Israeli Staff Sergeant Gilad Shalit? On that note, Peter Beinert suggests freeing Shalit to free Gaza. It’s a provocative look at an unending nightmare.
Israeli propaganda minister Ambassador To The U.S. Michael Oren is in comfortable surroundings on Hugh Hewitt, but didn’t add anything I couldn’t have scripted beforehand. But he did concede one thing: We agree that we’d like to find a better way of denying Hamas rockets. If the Secretary of State has ideas about how that might be done, we would be very, very happy to hear them. And we’ll be anxious to hear her suggestions.
The U.S. should simply step back. We won’t, but we should. Let’s see how well Israel fairs without us playing mediator for a while. We’ve given Israel aid without condition. Democrats and Republicans plan U.S. Middle East policy, only after crafting Israel into the picture. But still we get no respect or deference from our friend Israel. On nuclear weapons, Israel stands outside the common purpose for a nuclear free Middle East, because they need “defensive” weapons, which our leaders condone. There is no reason we should and considering that the Netanyahu-Lieberman government is flouting our efforts at peace, because they’re not interested in it, including pleas from the Obama administration to use caution when engaging the flotilla headed for Gaza, we should simply let Israel handle this issue on their own. They’re a grown, independent nation of great means.
As for Turkey, who is a very valuable friend, the U.S. should denounce the language being used by the Turkish ambassador.
Diplomacy in shambles.
Pres. Obama should stay in the Gulf where he can do some real good. There’s nothing to salvage in the Mideast right now.
I hear Turkey calling NATO…
Somebody has already begged them not to…
“We’re caught in the middle.”
No we are NOT “caught in the middle”. Politicos have made the CHOICE to place the US not in the “middle” but firmly under the thumb of Israel and their lobby here.
” Exhibit A for this condition is Liz Cheney, who has released a statement.”
Who on EARTH with two funtioning brain cells in their head gives a rat’s ass what Liz”WarPig” Cheney has to say about ANYTHING?!
“The U.S. should simply step back. We won’t, but we should. Let’s see how well Israel fairs without us playing mediator for a while.”
Thankyou, thankyou ver much! I’ve been screaming this for quite some time.
STOP the money. STOP the delivery of weapons.
Come back in ten years and deal with whomever’s left.
Well, secularh, you took that a bit farther than I meant. It’s the mediating aspect that should be dialed back, because we can.
The weapons issue, as well as other aid, will take a very long time to change, which begins with a conversation about what is necessary to do in the United States compared to what we can afford to do with Israel, but other nations too.
The gravy train to allies who don’t reciprocate needs to be dialed back.
obama is staying much longer in la this time. he is meeting locals which is good. its high time. obama slammed bp for its dumb ad camapign while cheating businesses on the gulf. he will go back next week. also obama is pushing for a climate bill which is good and reid has told sen chairs to fix up the bill and ready it for a summer fight. if we can get the climate bill passed then at least something good can come of this
…think you got the wrong thread, th4… we’re over in the Middle East
That is good news about the climate bill. In Obama’s brief hisotry, he already used corporate malfeasance once to help achieve legislative victory. Wellpoint’s rate hike was a key moment in passing HCR.
But what are his actions? More talk and cajoling? He’s president and he has the authority to take over the clean up and send the bill to BP. But if you look at CNN, insufficient numbers of people and equipment are there….and it’s late…very late. All of his words do nothing except try to turn the blame on BP and off himself. It’s not leadership by any means…and so far it is ineffective as well.
Sounds to me that the Turkish Ambassador is the only sane person left in DC -
Of course Israel will have to talk to Hamas – Fatah is so corrupt, bought off and incompetent that they really aren’t players. Besides the fact that Fatah has never brought anything to the Palestinian people except subservience to the Party, the US and Israel.
You’re not suggesting a “final solution,” please tell me you’re not…
the turkish amb said final solution twice. this phrase is heavily loaded and all the israeli and american papers are reporting it. i also saw the quote on many euro news sites today. this term, crafted at wasnasse by the nazis as a great code word for what they were about to do is infamous as it gets. how could the amb not know what he was saying? im assuming he knew precisely what he was saying?
haaretz reports the govts of ireleand and israel reached a agreement for the corrie to port at ashod and then take the goods to gaza. however the passengers of the corrie are rejecting calls by the irish govt to dock at ashod.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/passengers-of-rachel-corrie-reject-israel-ireland-deal-1.294173
Taylor:
So sorry – its been a loooong Friday -
Sometimes I’m a bit slow on the uptake – yes I see ….
Lets get real – I think we can give the Ambassador a bit of a break can’t we? The reason DC has exploded over this is because its a slip that’s closer to the truth than is allowed and they know it – Bibi and Adolf do …………..
Maybe you can take a trip over there and talk to them. But they do have a charter you know…and it calls for the destruction of Israel. And they have no intention of changing it. The Jews are a useful scapegoat…they have been throughout history. Hamas is bought off by Iran and Syria. Are you naive?
i cant believe the turkish ambassador. “final solution” aka the holocaust? we got a jobless job report and must pass the jobs bill blue dogs have fought, a oil spill and a climate bill going on, 2 wars etc.. we got enough going on here. israel and turkey’s govts are going head to head. time we focused on us.
This is actually why I disagree with Obama going to the Gulf again. Nothing Obama says or does will put the oil back int hat well. It makes Americans feel good, and it may be good politics. But there is so much going on in the world he can have an impact on.
But he won’t because he is perceived now as weak and feckless. He is naive and in over his head. That should be obvious by now.
Turkey and Brazil just undermined us in getting watered down sanctions on Iran in the Security Council. Doesn’t that tell you something? How long has he been promising sanctions? And what sanctions for North Koreas unprovoked attack? Turkey has been at cross purposes with us for a while….and we don’t call them on it or take action. Obama took the side of Hugo Chavez in the Honduras situation before he switched course.
Lots of problems. Lots of emotion. But no real solutions.
Sec. Clinton is the most qualified SoS in decades. Maybe I have too much faith in her, but I am positive she is working on the best solution.
Are we supposed to invade Brazil and Turkey now? Start a war with North Korea. That’s the George W. Bush response. And I’ve seen where that has led.
The democrats are just as bad as the republicans in defending Isreal. Rep Anthony Weiner seems to be the best one at it, then add Senator Chuck Schumer and Senator Kristian Gillibrand and many others. Isreal will always have the last say !! Its has for years !! Like I said many times, I am a supporter of Isreal, I just want things to be fair when it comes to the middle east situation.
Turkey did not help itself what so ever by saying that Hamas must be part of the Isreali-palestinian peace deal !! The Hamas group are not innocent in this situation. They have launched rockets in Israeli towns and villages and has been holding Israeli sergeant Gilad Shalit as Taylor mentioned !! I bet the heads of Israel’s backers and government are spinning over that one. We will never get them to shut up now after what Turkey’s ambassador said. I think people everywhere are going mad Taylor !! Its not just in the middle east !!
Me too. And I’m Jewish.
I support Israel. And Palestine. And I believe in fairness to both.
What the Turkish President said only fuels Israel’s false meme that it is constantly besieged by anti-semites and therefore must be defended regardless.
Something everyone should read and really think on since there are more nations involved than just Israel and the United States.
http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article61425.ece
Thank you, Iceblinkjim. I went to the article and read it. It is good.
Actually, I think Turkish ambassador may not have meant the unfortunate phrase “final solution” as it can be taken.
I think he meant that Hamas must be part of a satisfactory outcome of a serious peace negotiation. He made the mistake of using words that mean what he meant. He probably committed this faux pas without malicious intent.
He is right. Hamas was elected democratically. But elections only count if we say so, or can get a supreme court to jigger the outcome.
The people of Gaza like the Hamas, and are loyal to them in spite of the punishment rained upon them.
Israel is in a tough situation. Hamas is closing in on a getting an open seaport for Iran to deliver more powerful weapons than they can through tunnels. Just as Hezbollah currently has obtained. Iran is also not far away from having their own nuclear weapon capability. Both entities are clear in their desire to eliminate Israel. How long before Turkey becomes a NATO ally whose population and leadership starts to look and sound more and more like Iran?
To simply give in to unfettered access for ships into Gaza is suicidal. Obviously, the world opinion is against Israel as any kind of filter in inspecting incoming cargo. Who will do it? The U.N.? Let’s list the number of times they have been an epic fail in monitoring anything, versus their sucesses!
Israel may have been their own worst enemy at times, but does that mean just leaving them to the wolves? Talk about a Final Solution!
At some point, in desperation, Israel will feel compelled to use some form of nuclear option for perceived self-preservation.
You can’t just ignore them.
The Israelis have already proven that they would rather kill themselves than give up. Think Masada. Peace
i agree craig- let’s hope though a diplmatic solution can be found.
Craig there are time-tested ways of running a naval blockade. What Israel just did has absolutely no resemblance to such efforts.
Keeping Masada in mind we can’t just walk away from the goofy Israelis. Especially knowing that they have at least 300 nuclear bombs. If you think about it maybe they have been blackmailing the entire world since 1962? “If we, the state of Israel, dies than you all die too.” Might could be that’s why the Iranians are waiting for the 12th Imam to arrive on the scene any day now? Peace
And how many nuclear bombs does Pakistan have? They have suicide bombings there all the time…Do you feel safe knowing the Taliban is connected to their security service? Why not the outrage at Pakistan? And how about Russia ? Ever hear of Chechnya? Funny, we never hear of it. But somehow, a nuclear bomb in the hands of Iran or the Taliban seems very dangerous. Can’t say the same for the U.S. France or Israel, or the UK. Unless of course, you make no distinction between democracies with democratic institutions and theocracies. It would be wonderful if everyone just eliminated their existing arsenal…but that’s not human nature…its naivete. And had Germany obtained the nuclear bomb during World War 2, we might be speaking German or dead. But then, there are some who still want the Jews, little satan, and the Americans, big satan, destroyed. Because evil does exist in this world. And pacifism is not much of answer if history is any guide.
” Can’t say the same for the U.S. France or Israel, or the UK.”
Well we DID in fact use Nukes against a basically beaten foe who could have been starved into submission. But we wanted to make a political point to Stalin so all those civilians had to be incinerated.
As for feeling safe with Israel having them? Bullshit. How many AMERICANS has Israel killed?
Stop the money.
Stop supplying weapons.
Pull back for ten years and they can either learn to live together or kill each other off and we’ll talk to whomever is still alive.
BUT in the mean time throw a gazillion dollars into alternat energy R&D and quit the oil addiction.
agree about throwing money into alternate energy and quitting oil addiction….while creating new high tech jobs in this new sector…a win win
Meh secular, I have never bought the idea that nuking Japan had anything to do with scaring the bejesus out of ol’ Joe Stalin. First off Uncle Joe did not scare all that easy to begin with. Second the decision can be better explained by inertia. War has a well documented effect of brain freeze. The idea that if you have a weapon you use it is axiomatic in war. Once developed the nuclear bomb had its own terrible logic behind it.
Spot on with the rest of the post though. We have to get off oil, and we need to get out of the entangling alliances that oil creates.
If I remember my history lessons, Japan did not surrender…and they were vicious fighters. More Americans would have died under your construct.
You’re right. It’s kind of hard for people to grasp this, but the blame for the oil spill is largely on ourselves.
It’s our consumption of hydrocarbons and fear of government that led to this disaster. BP was reckless, but if not them, then someone else.
Pass a decent climate bill now.
Michael Oren is a noted historian. Maybe you should read some of his exhaustively researched books before you claim “propaganda.” Anyway, Susan Estrich just wrote this column…which expresses my views…thought I’d share it:
The Trouble With Confronting Terrorists
By Susan Estrich
Since Hamas took over in Gaza in 2007, Israel has attempted to enforce a blockade. No one doubts that hardships have resulted – but not enough hardships for Hamas to renounce its commitment to terror or to the destruction of the state of Israel.
Hamas likes to trumpet its humanitarian works – its hospitals and health care centers. But Hamas is also a terrorist organization, according to our own government, as well as Israel’s. Hamas targets civilians in Israel, claims credit for suicide bombings, and kills soldiers and civilians alike.
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Susan Estrich RealClearPolitics
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If Hamas were to renounce terror, if it were to limit its “governance” to schools and hospitals, there would be no need for a boycott and no shortage of the kinds of supplies the latest flotilla claimed to be bringing.
But Israel has every right to protect itself against those who would destroy it. It has every right, at least, to ensure that humanitarian aid is just that; that it does not include materials to be used to kill innocent Israelis.
That doesn’t mean its military should have killed nine activists, who died as a result of Israel taking control of the flotilla headed to Gaza. That was not part of the plan. It was not supposed to happen. And it has obviously exposed Israel to condemnation it doesn’t need and has strained relationships that are important to both its security and its economy.
But Israel did not intend to kill the activists. The truth is that Israel sent too few commandos to do the job, not too many; that they did not expect resistance and were too few in number to deal with it without resorting to deadly force.
It seems the Israeli military, which is usually a model for the world, wasn’t a model this time. They underestimated the opposition, weren’t prepared to handle it and ended up resorting to deadly force in a situation that should have been handled without it.
There is already internal criticism in Israel for these mistakes. Without question, there will be investigations into what went wrong and why. Mistakes were made, however clear it is, even in the grainy pictures, that the Israeli commandos faced resistance.
But has this ever happened with respect to operations conducted by American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan? Have civilians – not even “activists” aimed at confrontation – ever been killed because Americans faced more resistance than they expected with fewer troops than they needed to deal with it? Of course. Does the world gather round to condemn us? Should it?
One can look at much of the recent history of the Iraq war as an example of such military miscalculation at the outset, of an invasion with too few troops to do the job, which caused both military and civilian casualties. Wasn’t that the argument for the surge? We learned the hard way.
I am sorry for the hardships faced by innocent Palestinians because of the blockade. But that is the doing of Hamas. Elect a government that condemns terror rather than sponsors and supports it, and the hardships would stop. Even now, Israel has said that it is willing to deliver the aid being sent to Gaza – provided that it is aid.
Copyright 2010 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
Agreed. Good for Estrich.
klass-
i agree with estrich. note- putting the entire article on this site is a violation of the rules. try and just post say say a few key paragraphs and the link ok?
yes. thanks, I didn’t know. will do next time.
Susan Estrich, a good ol faux notnews whore.
Easy to demonize. She managed Michael Dukakis’s campaign and currently teaches at USC law school. She also was a Hillary supporter. Maybe you should sharpen your critical thinking skills and analyze the arguments before spouting your female hating colloquialisms.
Hamas is a side show. More to the point it is a creation of Israel. Specifically it is the logical end result of Draconian Israeli policies undertaken since the six day war Israel even funded Hamas in its earlier years as a way to weaken the PLO.
Political Islam is a very nasty thing to look at close up. The thing is that when you take three steps back you see the even nastier process that created political Islam. This is the end result of epically corrupt governments all over the Middle East and the short sighted U.S. policies that support those kleptocratic regimes.
Hamas is just another example of blow-back from bad policy decisions made in DC and Jerusalem.
” She managed Michael Dukakis’s campaign”
GOSH and THAT turned out alright didn it?!
“She also was a Hillary supporter.”
As was the entire faux notnews team during the primary.
Youknow, you’re RIGHT! We should just stop reading those pesky independent, liberal or progressive sites and just rely on faux notnews for our disinformation and propaganda!
” Maybe you should sharpen your critical thinking skills and analyze the arguments before spouting your female hating colloquialisms.”
Dahlik, obviously you don’t spend much time round these parts.
She’s a whore just like OLielly’s a whore and Blech’s a whore and Handjobity’s a whore and faux notnews is just a big electronic whore house.
Or reality apparently. Faux notnews and Israel are the ONLY trust worthy information sources for you?
Stop the money
Stop supplying weapons
Step back and let them figure/fight it out and come back in ten years.
Indict whoever is responsable for the murder of an American citizen in international waters in an illegal act hyjacking.
Well, this is all falling apart at the seams quite nicely, isn’t it. I wonder what the Turkish word for dunderhead is?
heh-heh…
and what was helen thomas thinking with her remarks that the jews should go back to germany and poland? uh we left there for a pretty damned good reason.
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2010/06/helen_thomas_yid_get_out_of_pa.html#comments
That was a aweful thing to say. Like I said its ok to criticize Isreal when its wrong, but to bash jewish people or say things are are so wrong, sorry I am not for that. I criticize my own government when its wrong !!!
Thomas has issued an apology.
“we should wash our hands of it, as there is no evidence whatsoever that we can appease either parties.”
But this is the ever wise and ever intervening United States we are talking about. We have commitments to both of these stiff-necked and hypersensitive nations. Now that they are engaged in an epic food-fight there is no way we will not get a pie in our face. This is the down-side of Imperial over-reach.
Chas Freeman is violently anti Israel and anti semitic. Obama’s foreign policy is in shambles…If you think Iran getting a nuclear weapon will be good for our country, then you need to have your head examined. The policy of appeasement has gotten us nowhere. Syria is more belligerent…Lebanon, once democratic, is now controlled by Hizbollah (who is run by Iran) and Syria. No more investigations of the murder of Prime Minister Harriri by the Syrians. And the Chinese continue to help the North Koreans starve their people and keep them in labor camps. The big picture is pretty frightening and Obama;s deer in the headlights reactions are similar to the Gulf crisis..ineffective. We are entering uncharted territory with a very weak and naive President. So far, what great reform have we gotten from him?
YOU’RE RIGHT! RECALL BUSH and invest him as KING for LIFE!!!
What appeasement? Iran has repeatedly stated that it does not want a nuclear bomb, it does not need a nuclear bomb, and that the Quran prohibits the making of a nuclear bomb. Those statements are directed as much toward Pakistan as they are to the larger Middle East. Peace
Chas Freeman is not anti-Israel. This is utter malarkey. He is what some would call an Arabist, but I’d call a brilliant mind that can see BOTH sides, which in this country is considered a thought crime.
someone who can see “BOTH sides” –> unfortunately, there are far too few people on this blog, who are capable of this when it comes to issues involving Israel. It is much easier to criticize Israel than actually think for a minute and take in the facts.
Turkey has gone from having a legitimate complaint to using incendiary, loaded and offensive language which doesn’t help anyone in this crisis- not Turkey, not Israel and not the U.S. The SOS or whomever should get on the horn and tell Turkey to scale back the offensive rhetoric because as we know, words have consequences.
One thing I will say- you may be right Taylor, perhaps the U.S. should send a message to both Turkey and Israel by stepping back and essentially saying “when you two decide to get out of the sandbox and act like international powers, give us a call…” but the U.S. will not do that.
Israel has once again put the U.S. in an untenable position. The State Dept. and WH apparently pleaded with Israel prior to the flotilla’s departure for Israel to use restraint, which they did not. The U.S. won’t condemn the disproportionate use of force last weekend by Israel despite the killing of an American on board so we’ve essentially chosen sides without saying as much out loud. In other words, Obama has no real plan to deal with this diplomatic escalation.
Isn’t it better to use “incendiary, loaded and offensive language” to get someone’s attention than it is to use a suicide bomber? Peace
Those aren’t the only two options.
SCB – I believe it’s the U.S. who chooses this position, because they will not deal with Israel firmly and honestly, something Netanyahu knows, which is why he’s pushing Obama into a corner of the American President’s own making.
Israel is not acting like America’s friend.
But take a look at Congress. They’re a huge problem on this one. HUGE.
and Congress represents the American people who are very supportive (thankfully) of a strong U.S.-Israel relationship.
If we keep going, we may be able to come around to blaming Turkey for provoking innocent Israel.
In my view, nothing excuses a special ops military strike in the dead of night in international waters against a humanitarian ship, period. Nothing Turkey says absolves Israel of their disproportionate use of force and their failure to abide by international maritime law. But politics being what it is, it makes no sense for Turkey, as justified as their outrage is, to give people in Israel and the US a convenient excuse to focus on something *other* than what happened on the flotilla and that’s exactly what appears to be happening.
Thanks for your civil response. I still think in terms of what I said above (04 June, 7:28 p.m.)
No question, the phrase “final solution” was unfortunate and offensive, albeit most likely unintentionally.
After a while, after a great long while, one can get tired of always having to tippy-toe regarding the bellicosity of Israel.
What happened to them in the Nazi era was beyond heartbreaking. What is now happening with the Palestinians is breaking my heart.
But the more one knows about many sad bullying stories all over the place, the more one’s heart does break. It is too sad. Ignorance is bliss, it’s said. I can’t choose ignorance, but I’m not equal to the pain of the world.
Well, I actually think we totally agree. I’m not trying to pile on Turkey but there is obviously a PR campaign being waged against them right now, just check out Rep. Weiner’s op-ed today, and it simply doesn’t help Turkey politically or diplomatically for them to use the sort of rhetoric they were using.
Given that Turkey has been such a good ally of Israel, I do kind of question whether they were trying to invoke genocide but I honestly don’t know. The Turks are notoriously diplomatic and it is clear they are outraged, but I am still having a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that the Turkish leaders intentionally invoked the Holocaust. But again, I honestly don’t know. I do know that irrespective of their intent, it has allowed people some people to distract everyone from the underlying issues involved in incident- and that certainly doesn’t help Turkey or anyone else who wants to see justice done.
I apologize if someone has already posted this link- I looked and didn’t see it.
The U.S. has to come out an forcefully defend the rights of Americans overseas. Peaceful protesters, while perhaps inconvenient for Israeli PR, do not pose a national security threat despite Israel’s claims to the contrary and the US should demand an inquiry into what justified shooting an American in the face at relatively close range.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-klein/blinding-the-witnesses_b_600773.html
The disturbing trend in Israel is they claim that all those who protest the situation in Gaza/the Occupation are somehow a threat comparable to Hamas rockets and such a claim flies in the face of democratic principles. While Israel faces legitimate security threats, as do all nations, to use “national security” as an excuse to silence any opposition to its policies is unacceptable. The people who have an automatic knee-jerk response in defense of anything Israel does, ignore the fact that often times the issue is not whether Israel faces threats or has a right to national defense. Rather, the issue is whether the means used by Israel comport with any generally accepted view of international law with respect to occupying forces and the use of disproportionate force or collective punishment of those over whom it has TOTAL control.
Increasingly, human rights activists and journalists have faced violence and arbitrary detention, refusing to allow any international oversight or investigation into the disturbing growth in these practices.
I did see the Naomi Klein article. She is a Jew who, like many Jews in Israel and elsewhere, see the unfairness, the mean brutality.